50 Point Tier - Discuss

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P.S., in case anyone is wondering...

There are currently 2879 points in the system, and every month approximately 200 points are introduced. In four months time, there will be about 25% more points floating around, assuming attendance and the rate of new members coming in and old members leaving stays the same.
 
Elysabeth said:
Bottomline, you guys are so worried about getting new members, that you're forgetting how to keep current members from leaving.
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Ridiculously good point. Aside from Xarc clears, I'm not sure I would even bother coming to Xarc farms if the Chapeau was guaranteed to go to one person. I've probably been to 40-50 DX runs, but since I was on a 6-month break, and most of the DX runs I have gone on were before the points system was implemented, it'll be a pretty long time before I have 50 points. Even though I've been dedicated to coming, that work would be for naught with a 50-point tier if someone at 50 points had RDM (don't believe anyone has that currently, but given that piece's drop rate for us, it won't be long).

Spirn, not everyone comes to Dynamis for AF2. If that were the case, people like Eticket would have quit coming to every run (aside from Xarc) a long time ago. Whether it's a great or consistent source of income is irrelevant to most people - the draw of getting a quick 6 or 7-figures of gil is there with the 100's for most people. I lot 100's on half the zones (Bastok, Windy, and Glacier), and I'd definitely be willing to spend 6 points on one, given my..err...bleak financial situation. Still other people come to Dynamis because it's fun..at times. If I had Chapeau I'd definitely still be coming to Xarc clears, I love coming to those (even though I happen to be 0/3 on the big ugly).

Honestly I'd think we'd be to the point at 16 points that you've paid your dues and should be allowed to lot for AF you want. Rewarding the "top dogs" might sound nice for them, but consider the number of people affected by that. Looking at this a second time, I'm not sure it's really worth the potential drama and loss of dedicated people. If you can't lot a piece of AF after going to every single run for 2 months...well...I'd honestly say you'd be better off looking elsewhere for AF.
 
When I look at many of the members still attending quite a few do not have many reasons for attending the runs they do, but they come anyway. To me that says a large amount of people simply enjoy coming regardless. Plenty of people often attend Bastok for no reason that I can tell, they just do.
 
Never underestimate the psychological impact a 50-point tier will have on newcomers. They'll see it and run a mile. I guarantee it.

As for the regular attendees, it takes a significant amount of time to acquire 50 points as it is. As someone said, approximately 5 months of perfect attendance. For someone like myself, who can't attend many runs due to timezone differences (DX runs kick off at 1am..ouch), it'll take a significantly longer amount of time to hit that mark.

Now let's say a piece of AF2 drops and someone actually has 50 points to lot on it. If I put myself in that person's shoes, I would say that they've either been waiting for that piece for a VERY long time, or they've recently levelled the job in question to 75 and happen to be an extremely dedicated member of DX in terms of attendance and seniority.

As far as I'm concerned, someone in that position probably deserves a bit of a break. Remember that we're talking about 5+ months of straight attendance without lotting ANYTHING. Their reasons for not doing so are irrelevant, they've put an amazing amount of time and effort into helping other people out while taking nothing back in return. I'd be cheering someone like that on if they got a reward after that amount of time.

So to be honest, having an extreme tier like that would probably work out fine and (hopefully) create a sense of familiarity between the more seasoned DX members. Like I said, new members might be deterred but there's not much you can do about that. Someone's always going to end up dissatisfied.
 
Damn, I still have 40 points? haha

Personally, everyone so far is right. 50pt tier will probably scare off a great deal of people, simply because it would mean that the selected one or two people with those points would be assured an item (High-demand stuff.)

I had a conversation with a friend -- not naming names -- who came to a beaucedine farming run a few weeks ago. He doesn't play much due to job & school, but he was 4/5 on af2 and figured he'd come and give it a shot. Joining the run, he learned about the points system and wasn't exactly happy. His take on it: He can at most make a run once a week, maybe once every other week. He'd have to do dynamis for 2 months, maybe more, before he got a chance at beaucedine AF.

Eh, granted, if he'd just won the thing he'd never come back again.. so no big loss, ya? Most people who do dynamis solely for the af2 get their piece and leave.

Sadly,most people do dynamis for af2.

I like the current system: you can't change people's attitudes. If all they want is the xxx piece, they'll rather take their chances at random runs. Af2 drop rate sucks giant balls as is, they don't wanna have to worry about points. Small point costs (4 in starter cities) is pretty easy to swallow.

A 50pt tier would skew the run in favor of long-term members... I know its at most useable every once in a blue moon, but that'd happen more often than you like. If you're a rdm/blm/nin just joining, and you know So and so has 50+ pts.. you know you're not seeing xarc. af2 until that person gets it.

Any increase.. maybe small. Incremental. Nothing that huge that it makes the next rdm af2 hat 100% property of Sir Nevermissesarun.


I ramble..

The thing is, 50 points isn't even so huge. I had 56 before winning blm hat, and in my time in dx I got 5/6 mnk af2, 4/6 blm (-feet, had those before I started) 3 drk af2 pieces (including af2 and af2-1 feet) and bst af2 body.
I also think I won 100bills at least twice.
 
The only reason I posed such a question was to offer an alternative Garret. You and few others know that I can't exactly make it to any of your runs only because it coincides with my Saturday dynamis runs. If I go on Wed, I miss a good 1-1.5 hours on Saturday.

Implementing such a policy isn't hard. But it does skew in favor of those with the most points. If I had the points... my opinion is the same as Ono's. I would use all my points on the Valor Surcoat. One thing I've noticed going with multiple LS's is that many only have "main lot N jobs" policy. It *IS* restrictive but you could gear the 50 point tier towards their "preferred commented jobs."

I don't know. Everyone has suggestions with good counter examples. Garret's law is THE law. =Þ
 
First off, I didn't mean to offend you alienmonkey, and if I did, I'm very sorry. Just calm the f-- down alright?

I NEVER said that you HAD to lot something. I NEVER said you have no purpose in going on the runs. What is wrong with you? I don't have anything against you. I actually think you're a very nice person, and you're completely misunderstanding my intentions here, and trying to make me a "bad guy" for some reason. You took one little statement and turned it into some kind of conspiracy I have for getting you to stop coming to dynamis?

I was just trying to point out that your statement of "Meh I have nothing to lot in Dynamis currently but 100's," was incorrect. Because people like Predaking, Gunzz, and myself actually don't have anything to lot but 100's. Again, I'm very sorry if I offended you.

Now, onto the argument at had.

I need you guys to lay off the 16 points this and that. There are very competitive af2's at 8pts, and even 4 pts too.

And why would someone not come to a run if a 50pt person will automatically win something? Have you ever thought that gee, maybe that guy wants to earn a point? Maybe he/she wants to lot 100's, or another af2 for minimal points? OR just go to dynamis NOT for af2, like many of you keep emphasizing sooooo many times.

You guys are treating the 50 point lotters as some random guy off the streets of Jeuno. This person has been to about 45+ runs. You should show that person more respect.

In my opinion, you guys are WAAAAY overthinking this. I mean, Nekio, you didn't have to bring out the statistics textbook, did you? Simply put, a 50 point tier just means a person, to quote Aangeliceus, has lots of points but the worst lots in the history of vana'diel. And just as Garret said, shouldn't we give the guy a break?

AGAIN, times change. Rules change. Old dynamis rules: declare a job, lot away, no special treatment. Why shouldn't there be special treatment? "Because we've always done it that way." Well, we've always split the 1m entrance fee before, now it's all sponsored.

I just want to see a change. I have never liked this current points system, as it discourages both newcomers and veteran members at the same time. Everyone keeps saying "this system works," but I just don't believe that.

With that said, Garret, it's obviously up to you to change the rules or not. It's your ls, and you can do whatever you want. You said you wanted to hear everyone's opinions, and this is mine-- I'm in full support of a high point tier and/or raising current point tiers. Fodder's idea of a "one-time only" thing is a good idea as well.

Just a final note, I'm not just arguing this side for myself. People who really know me, know that I'm not a selfish person at all, and they can tell you how many times I have passed HNM items before in the past. I just believe in rewarding people for what they rightfully deserve.
 
Why was the point system stared in the first place?
 
Defiant said:
Why was the point system stared in the first place?
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Simply to prevent new members from winning AF right after joining.

Elysabeth said:
In my opinion, you guys are WAAAAY overthinking this.
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I would argue that those in favor of just slapping a 50-point tier on top of the current system aren't thinking enough about how lotting should really work.

I'm sorry, but I will not stand behind any system that puts everyone with 1-50 points in one boat, and a few people with 50+ points in the other boat. Particularly because it's an arbitrary cutoff that will be rendered obsolete in a few months when a large portion of the regular attendees will have 40-50 points. Similarly, I am strongly opposed to a straight up bidding system. I have already stated that I would support higher lotting tiers, but it needs to be implemented fairly. That would require spaced lotting tiers all the way up to as high as people can lot. In other words, 20 > 30 > 40 > 50 > etc. I just don't see how that can feasibly be implemented with the time given to lot.

*EDIT*
DX is a HUGE public shell, and as such has a responsibility to give all members an equal chance of winning AF if they put in enough effort. "Enough effort" is not dependent on who in the shell has been around the longest or has saved the most number of points, but rather solely on what THAT member has contributed. The more we move toward a bidding system, the more we turn lotting into a get-in-line type of situation, where every new member gets to look at the other 300+ members and count up all of the people who they will have to pass their AF to before they will get theirs. That's a sure way to kill recruitment.
 
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Nekio said:
Simply to prevent new members from winning AF right after joining.
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Ding.

The point of having the points system is simply to keep random people from coming out of nowhere in lotting. Like I said before, if you have 16, or even 8 points, you've paid your dues. This isn't a "good ole boys" system, and god forbid it turns into that. Listen to the people who have 50+ points. Do they sound like they want a 50+ point tier? Doesn't seem like it.

Is a person with 50 points more dedicated than a person with 20 points? Who's to judge. Maybe the person with 20 points has to work Wednesday nights and cannot possibly attend Sunday runs. Maybe the person with 50 points only has 1 75 job and has nothing to spend the points they've accumulated on, but has only attended a run or 2 more than someone with say..30 points who has several jobs and keeps getting city AF for one job or another?

The point is that when you start drawing a distinct line as far as "you're worthy of lotting because you're dedicated", it's -impossible- to account for every situation. Those of us who are dedicated know who we are. We don't do it because we expect something handed to us on a silver platter, we do it because that's what responsible/reliable people do, and we aren't just in it for ourselves. Obviously I'm not in a position to be speaking for someone with 50 points, but I've been in similar positions before and said the same thing.

If anything, I might suggest bumping up the points for city AF, maybe to 8, and glacier to 12. Not all City AF is worth that much obviously, but as discussed before, those pieces would be counted down. That way it further keeps people from joining for a week or 2 and winning AF never to see them again, but keeps the majority of us on an even playing field - which I think the goal should be.
 
That is indeed why points were implemented, as well as why I was opposed to a straight up bidding system.

While we do our best to please all members, it's truly an impossible feat, and although it is true that a 50 point tier would be advantageous to some of the longer attending members I think the merits of that speak for itself when many of those members who are either close to that tier of points or approaching it do not want it implemented. One advantage veteran players do have is the capacity to essentially lot whatever they want. A new player can not walk into the LS and simply plan to lot everything all the time.

Many older members have won a decent amount of AF2, and could still walk into Xarcabard planning to lot a Shadow Ring. That is essentially what their time spent in the LS has afforded them. They can also go out, level a new job to 75, and then not have to worry about points for that job.

As stated before where do you end up setting the bar, over time more & more people are going to have a high value of points, and that will only increase, do you then set in another higher tier, as that goes on it would further discourage any new attendees, and nobody wins AF2 if the LS doesn't field enough members.
 
Obviously, Nekio, you fail to understand how lotting works as well. Lets just say everyone with 25+ points start saving up to 50 right now. So, what, we're just going to PASS our af2 if it drops in the meantime? Of course not, we're going to lot! I'll bet more than half of us will win something before we even reach 40 points, much less 50.

But lets just say, for the sake of argument, everyone's lots suck, and they all reach 50. So what? So you have competition at 50 points. You say it screws those people with 16-49? That's complete bull. In the same time someone has gone from 16 to 50 points, one person could get 1-16 TWICE (possibly has won 2 xarc af2's already). The majority of the competition will still be at 16 points, or 8 points, or whatever.

So newcomers will have to pass af2. News flash, they ALREADY have to! I had to pass koga chainmail at 4 points, when I had 3 points. It HAPPENS. Deal with it. You have to wait your turn under this system, am I right?

"count up all of the people who they will have to pass their AF to before they will get theirs." I don't understand what your point is with this statement. Even if there ISN'T a 50 point tier, those people will be in the 16 point tier, and therefore, will still be counted as a person "they have to pass" to win their af2 (if it's xarc af2). What is your argument here?

But go on, keep on respouting the same argument that it will kill recruitment, when in my opinion, it will cause members to stay longer, therefore increasing attendance in the long run.

EDIT: I also want to mention that you will not see numerous people with 60, 70, or 80 points, because they will most likely win af2 at 50, and be purged FIFTY points. Therefore, you will not have to add more point tiers. People fail to realize how much time it takes to even get 50 points.
 
Notice i'm 4th on the list of highest points and i have won 4/5 ninja afv2 and 3/5 thf afv2 under this system i am after VERY few pieces anymore. Do i go to win afv2? not really i want gloves but not for my personal gain ... do i want nin gloves? just so i can store the set. I enjoy watching others win afv2 and mess around with people. I watch strong willed skilled players go from giving their all to slacking off (you know who you are). Point is those of us at 50points only want 1-2 AF pieces if AF at all. This is where i see and agree with Fodders opinion. I would have posted sooner had my internet not been gone for 1-2 days. Point is we as leaders do notice a lot that isnt said in the open. A lot happens behind the scenes also. 50points is nice because it narrows the 40+ lotters down to 1-2 competition for thos eof us always there dedicated to making the shell always run and being a better place. However my opinion is more than likely biased.
 
Elysabeth said:
Obviously, Nekio, you fail to understand how lotting works as well. Lets just say everyone with 25+ points start saving up to 50 right now. So, what, we're just going to PASS our af2 if it drops in the meantime? Of course not, we're going to lot!
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No, I'll pass on THF pants, BST head, BST and THF accessories and any +1 items that drop in the meantime, until I have 50 points so I can lot THF hands. Just like I did until I had 16 points. I'm not the only one that did it when the points were introduced, and I won't be the only one to do it if we introduce a 50-point tier. Especially since if you reach that tier early, you are guaranteed to win your Xarc relic without competition.

I'm not going to say anything about effects on attendance or anything, but I guarantee that in less than a year there will always be at least one person with 50 points looking to lot every high-demand item.
 
Dude, I know you'll pass on that stuff. I'm talking about you lotting your af2 hands while trying to get to 50. In the time it takes to get from 25-50 points (roughly 3 months), we'll have gone to xarc about 6 times. IF thf af2 hands do drop, you ARE going to lot, right? And you'll have a good chance at winning too. Maybe it drops 2-3 times during those runs, who knows? You can't go by "oh it drops 1 time every 4 months" because koga chainmail used to drop every month before the 6 month drought. It's all random.

And if you do win it, you're not saving up to 50 anymore, are you? You can win the other items at "regular" point cost probably.

Originally posted by Nekio
"I guarantee that in less than a year there will always be at least one person with 50 points looking to lot every high-demand item."
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I'll assume you mean 1 person lotting 1 high demand item. I don't understand your problem with this. The guy has put the effort, saved points from 5 months worth of runs, and wants to lot one item for FIFTY points.

Proponents of a 50 point tier are those who don't believe a minimum of 2 months of attendance (one month for the item I want) is worth it some of the items out there.
 
Elysabeth said:
I'll assume you mean 1 person lotting 1 high demand item. I don't understand your problem with this. The guy has put the effort, saved points from 5 months worth of runs, and wants to lot one item for FIFTY points.
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The problem is, requiring 25 weeks, half a YEAR, of straight attendance in order to even LOT Xarcabard relic is absolutely insane.

Elysabeth said:
Proponents of a 50 point tier are those who don't believe a minimum of 2 months of attendance (one month for the item I want) is worth it some of the items out there.
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Again, if your problem is that you don't think that 2 months straight attendance is enough effort to lot Xarc relic, propose a system that has tiers from 0 points all the way up to 50 points and beyond. Putting in a single 50-point tier after the points system has been established will do nothing at all but give a select few people a free pass on a few pieces of AF. Do they deserve their AF? Sure they do. Is it even remotely fair to "give" them their AF without competition after the current rules have been in effect for all this time? Absolutely not.
 
Seems to me people forget why points became part of this LS system.

Eticket has 1 job at 75 (leveling others) but goes to lot 100's

Gunzz has how many jobs at 75? I beleive he goes for the chance to sponsor runs.

Predaking went to sponsor SOAP.

People go for all different reasons. The 3 above i named where some of the highest point holders when i looked at the point sheet some time ago.

So if a 50 point tier was to be introduced, what would be next? a 75 Point and 100 point tier? lol.....
 
It's not about 75 100s some of us go as leaders others to sponsor others have high points because we HAVE the armors we need. How is a 50point for a gaurenteed win on something unfair? We dedicated time when we didn't want to at times we go for our own reasons. When some items are rare enough drop wise to where 90% of the linkshell can lot against us i don't see the issue. We are willing to throw 5months of points at something. WE aren't forcing you to. You can look at it in the perspective of once we throw our points away we cant be competition on the same scale for another 5 months. That to me says a lot on 1.) getting rid of points and 2.) part of what the system was in place for ... rewarding loyalty to the linkshell.

As many might also concur do points say we are more loyal than others? no however points show our dedication also. This isnt to say because you have less points you aren't as dedicated it just means
that we put our time in and we agree to throwing that much time into ONE item. its no where close to a "free pass" its a TON of our time poured into the item.
 
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