50 Point Tier - Discuss

Status
Not open for further replies.
Bah

Well 12 pages later and Ive read alot.
One question - why we so worried about new people anyways?
You guys gonna get your AF2 and leave? lol... thats it isnt it? lol.

Honestly in my mind - having a 'once in a lifetime' lot with my 50 points is a great idea also Fodder - or even having the 50 point tier also is great idea - Id truely stick around and believe - YES I will get AF2! Just gotta work for it!

But I guess we care more about people weve never met and have no idea how good they are in dynamis over the people that have proven themselves and sacrificed alot to be here and helpout. Which in my mind leaves me thinking - DX dont care - DX is all about random fate not hard work or merit. Because guys just because you have points - dont mean ANYTHING if you cant win anything. And thats the truth.

You guys made points to prevent the 'cherry picking of the ls' lol yet you defend the right for new people to come and lot stuff such as lets say a THF armlet or a RDM hat or a pld coat - which they can earn in a couple months or less. LOL! R i g h t......... Yippie So like when I have 100 Points and some random person we never have met comes into DX and wins rdm hat after less than 2 months and we never see them again .... What then!??! You gonna be like - Well im glad we got that person that HAT - he really deserved it .... and well Spirn.... guess you get to wait another year to lot. - Oh btw there will be 4-5 new rdms also by then with 16 points.....

/sigh - Ya well.... if its gonna be like that I really dont care to do dynamis cities or anything else - cause i have my points to lot at 16 - So i guess once I get my AF2 ill leave and just showup for Northlands only ( NOT WHAT I WANTED TO DO ) But honestly what recourse do i have? I dont need AF2 from cities - Lotting 100's is silly in my opinion - That should goto people that sponser dynamis - not some random person trying to make an easy money... but w/e. I already have the points - so why try and get more? Its not like they are worth anything past 16 anyways....

Id honestly love to come dynamis in northlands KNOWING someone is going to get an item - Someone wrote they wouldnt want to showup to northlands if they knew someone was going to win a specific item - WELL THAT SUCKS! Great to have you in this LS - im glad you care so much about your fellow members..... Honestly I WOULD LOVE TO SHOWUP to see someone win something they really wanted.... EVEN TARNAK!!!! Ya i have to admit.... seeing him win THF hands would make my day.... Cause I know how much it means to him and or Ely' win also. I would be like CONGO-RATS - ALL RIGHT WOOT! GOOD JOB! WAY TO EARN THAT AF2 !!!!!!

Oh but what about the guy we never met before - the guy trying to get into dynamis and didnt get a chance to lot over tarnak.... OH WELL - I COULD CARE LESS - untill they prove themselfs worthy.... idc.

DX ive found is kinda designed to also reward people with more than 4 lvl 75 jobs or so it seems... The chance to lot any AF2 u can wear certainly highlights this statement. So ya if you got 1-2 lvl 75 jobs and have 50 points - have fun watching someone that just got their 8th job to 75 last month and beat you out for that 1 ITEM YOU WANT SO BAD.... but dont worry it will look better in the other persons Mog House where it will sit 85% of the time. -.-

Anyways im sure the 50 point tier thing wont happen - 100 point tier!??! Heh comon... im thinking by the time i get to 100 points - DX will be like ok we got all the AF2 we wanted - time to /breaklinkshell x.x lol
Anyways was a nice debate - seems the nay-sayers will win this Garret but for whats it worth their arguements didnt seem to be as valid or carry as much wieght as the people who are for it. - thats opinion - before someone starts to 'cut and paste' me lol.

I feel the nay-sayers were more concerned about themselves rather than where the focus and source for this debate was to be about - which was the people with alot of points and have horrible odds / luck. And no 50 points wasnt MY IDEA - although im creeping up on 50 points.... ( lol horrible suggestion - as if im trying to do this for myself ) Id be ok with 100 point or 75 point also..... Like I said - SOMETHING to give us hope - that light at the end of the tunnel. And hell ya know what? If I won something at 50 point tier - Guess WHAT! Id be back the next run working towards 50 points again! Yep im that determined and Loyal - but I guess those things dont matter much here.

Random Fate.... other people's real lives..... and random new people ive never met before.... are the things that prevent me from obtaining the AF2 I want.... >> - thats encouraging.... perhaps this is why people get their af2 and never come back.... maybe if you gave them a way to really work towards it Garret people wouldnt get what they want and leave. Maybe they'd come back and work towards more... I know I would...

Blah blah - well last post i guess on this from me - if i dont win in 3 posts I guess I failed. DX = Great LS Garret - you have a tough choice - whatever decision you make Ill be ok with obviously. Just remember what Ive said and dont hold it against me or others if we feel DX just isnt working out for us with the current system. I came into this LS knowing this could happen - Anyways hope it happens - be great if it did - but if it doesnt its cool - thanks for listening and debating guys - thanks for keeping it semi-clean and i appreciate the forum in which to speak my mind! Im glad the Sackholders and such here allow this debate to go on in such a open way - it really does help.

Your humble Goat-Herder - I mean RDM...
Spirn..
 
I'm going to have to disagree with a decent extent of your previous post Spirn.

The point system was designed to discourage cherrypicking, completely true, but that is exactly why the current system requires 2 months of attendance in order to lot in the first place.

What actually happens more often is that new attendees win their city AF2 first, because they can afford it faster, and this in turn means it will be even longer before they are able to lot on Xarc AF2.

Assuming a member wins their 3 city AF2 first that means they would have to earn 26 points before they could lot for Xarc AF2, that is 3-4 months worth of attendance.

By that point in time how is someone still 'new'?

What I see happen much more often is 1 of 2 things.

1. New attendees drop in for a few runs, earn some points & some clears, maybe get some city AF2 & then feel it will take too long to earn what they really want & leave.

2. New attendees start coming and over the course of the months they are attending they find the LS to their liking & stay for much more of a long haul.

That is exactly what the system is designed to do. If someone has contributed to the LS strongly for 2 months then that is worthy participation for being able to lot a piece of AF2, and they would have to contribute even longer than that if they want more than 1 piece.

I disagree with classifying someone who has attended with the LS for at least 2 months as 'new'. Yes they may not have been attending for 2+ years, but that bracket applies to *very* few people, and it is always possible to further differentiate people but that doesn't neccesarily make it a truly worthy difference.

Yes, as an LS leader I truly appreciate the efforts of those that attend week after week, but I believe that many of these people do it because they enjoy their time in Dynamis, and while they may want AF2 as well people with 20, 30, 40+ points don't even *NEED* to attend, they could decide on their own they would rather only come to runs which had AF2 that they want. But by & large they don't, so they obviously enjoy coming.

At the same time the reason concern is given to potential new attendees is that they can't exactly speak up for themselves, because they aren't here yet but their attendance is an important factor for runs. And one of the areas I pride DX in is our capacity for showing new people the ropes of Dynamis and I can easily say that I can look at almost any vet & recall a time when they were brand new to the LS & didn't know much about Dynamis or DX & would rate them as fantastic parts of the LS now. And I'm sure they can look at one another & think the same thing.
 
I don't think he means people who've attended 2+ months are "new" or don't deserve to lot stuff. He only means that those who've been with the ls for 2+ years, or w/e, deserve it more.

It's just frustrating to see "newer" members getting items we've been wanting for years, and then never see them again.

For example, when 2 koga chainmails dropped last week, splstorm and blaque won. Now, they weren't at xarc recently, but I do hope they show up to more runs next month. Otherwise, they won't just be "two less competition" for me anymore, unfortunately.

I mean, 12 koga chainmails have dropped in dx, and only 2 were in xarc recently (tarn and aquazero, who were required to be other jobs of course). The other 10... well, if at least one of them came, I could've went samurai to give a little more firepower on dynamis lord. I mean, not that I don't mind doing it, but with all these 75 ninjas out there, I still have to help kite xarc NM's? lol

But I guess the "grab-and-go" attitude of dynamis is how it's always been and will be in the future.

I agree with everything in your post Spirn, but yeah, if Garret doesn't even agree to his own idea, I think this is a lost cause. lol
 
Spirn said:
I feel the nay-sayers were more concerned about themselves rather than where the focus and source for this debate was to be about - which was the people with alot of points and have horrible odds / luck.
Click to expand...

I feel you should go back and look at my posts again. ^_^;;

I have earned a lot of points. I'm currently #13 on the list, and I have gotten quite a few AF pieces since the point system was put in place.

I have had horrible odds/luck. I started attending DX around my 20th run total. It took me 60+ runs with DX before I ever won AF I had commented for (back before points; could only declare one job). Even then, it was because I switched what I was lotting from the highly-contested whm to the totally-uncontested smn. I didn't actually beat anyone for AF for several more months. I've seen 8 whms fighting with me for 3 whm body pieces in one run, and instead of reducing the competitors to 5, there were 7 lotting whm at the next run in that zone.

I understand the frustration of not getting pieces you want, believe me. But regardless of the fact that I'd like to address that problem for others, it absolutely must be balanced with other issues. We have had problems recently with attendance in the Northlands, to the point that we have not been able to clear Xarc with any kind of regularity (only once this year?). We don't need fewer people to show up, and that's the likely result of the suggestions being made here.

Some of my funnest runs have been when we had tons of people and we cleared Bastok and even Windurst of mobs. It was a great accomplishment and gave great AF and money rewards, but we need enough people to do it. That's why I'm concerned about new people. Not because I want them to win AF over people who have been here longer, but because we need them to keep winning AF. And really, after 2 months of attending they aren't "new people" anymore. They're regular members who have put in good effort and deserve some of the rewards.

I would support moving back to declaring 1-2 jobs to lot (probably 2). I think it will help reduce some of the competition for certain pieces, though of course some pieces will still be highly sought for. It should improve things without the bad side effects. It probably won't be a total solution, but it should help some.
 
I 100% agree with Garret's points. If you start talking about who-deserves-what-more, then you will inevitably come to a bidding system, and bidding systems simply do not work in public shells with high turnover. DX will crumble and fail if we don't encourage new members to join.

*EDIT* And I agree with Varda. Bringing back job declaration would help a lot.
 
Haha that lasted for like what? 1-2 runs though garret? I walked into the ls with fodder "Come with me Tarnak i'm training you" 2 runs later "you're the main puller" then a few runs later i'm all "yay my first Beaucedine maybe they'll teach me ..<Garret>Tarnak's the puller <me> awww im so douched . Even as i was telling my friend last night. I don't see what Fodder saw in me those first runs but i am glad he saw something. I wouldnt trade the position i am in for anything in vanadiel not even a mandau. I've had the opportunity to respect and be respected a lot by others. And just its a nice feeling being able to show people the win/clear when they think all hope is lost.

lol but yeah it is frustrating to have 45+ points and know it means jack vs someone with 16points. Yes a lot of people view me getting thf af hands the same as Garret getting his pld body. However all the joking about me getting it in /l is really joking. People want those gloves to help themselves and their real linkshells. I, however want them to help DX. WE have been through good times and bad times and rumors in DX. I take pride in the trust that has been bestowed upon me. Do I know why it has? no, but I surely will respect it. I go and love to see people win af.

Yes we have had runs where the same person lots nearly EVERY job that they can. However they put the effort forth to level that many jobs and i respect that. A lot of us dont go caring about our points or afv2. We go to contribute to the shell. We pull strings when attendance is low. A lot goes on behind the scenes that even vet members don't know about especially on low attendance runs in the way of /tells and talking certain issues out.

About changing it to 1-2 jobs i honestly don't see that changing anything. Even people with 7-8 jobs at 75 really only go for 1-2 pieces. This is shown by how low they let the other pieces they need get before they even consider taking it to get one item is better than no items.

Yes i know a lot of members that came and got af and left to not return because "why bother since i have what i wanted now?" Will i get mad at them and such? No. Why might you ask? Because this system was declared for many reasons one of which being EVEN if they came won and left they HAD to contribute a set amount of time into the AF via points. Its not just northlands attendance that has been diminishing.

Spirn not to attack but your post is hypocritical in the sense of saying the exact thing this ls is pretty much against. Which is the "i have my points why show up?" mindset.

Anyways off the topic i might start requesting specific players i might see as slacking off to be in my alliance so i can see what it is they really do during the run. Even if this makes them work hard for one run maybe it'll scare them into working harder on other runs unless they want to be requested in also. :)

So yeah pretty much as a whole the system is working fine. does the "less competition for you" stand true? it does more so than it used to with the no point system. Attendance is a fight with lazy players that dont want to invest time to earn their items. North lands should have more attendance from cities for one huge factor. The points you are given as a reward. Unless it says "farming" you can walk away with 2 runs worth of points. To me that says a LOT as to how you can loophole yourself into more points faster.

Personally i'm for the 50point tier not to say "vets win first" but as a points purge. Their will always be something someone will want. Its the fights we are willing to go through to get the item. Some plainly give up, some stop caring, some fight no matter the odds and will continue to fight for their in game family DX to watch everyone prosper. This is what i want people to look at if anything. I want everyone to look at other members also that won items. Look not at what you want look at those that have spent time and haven't won af in DX yet those that don't know the joy of this. I want us all to help one another as sappy as that is lol.

As much as we look to help long standing members in the linkshell consider the new people also. You were there once we ALL were. This system is created to be "Fair". That is why we allow such debated the system was created by the members and upheld by the leaders. Thats why we listen so intently to ideas then its discussed / decided :P

Sorry for making so much to read. I hope if anything i made one person look into who they are and how they play the game. Then realize their are others wanting items also :D (yes i know we all want to win but so do others kindness is in turn rewarded by kindness)
 
Tarnak said:
Anyways off the topic i might start requesting specific players i might see as slacking off to be in my alliance so i can see what it is they really do during the run. Even if this makes them work hard for one run maybe it'll scare them into working harder on other runs unless they want to be requested in also. :)
Click to expand...

:eek: I see why I was in the BLM party with Tarnak last wednesday in xarcabard, considering I haven't been in a BLM alliance in I can't remember how long.


On a side note a lot of you say worry about the old members that continue to come, but you also have to realize that people come and people go. You worry about only the old members and eventually they leave and the shell slowly dies away. The influx of new members helps keep the shell healthy and balance it out as time goes on.
 
Pulling in dynamis is pretty easy when you know what pops. It makes it even easier when the people who are helping to sleep the pops know what pops as well. I believe that everyone should have some idea of the danger certain mobs can pose to the group. I also believe that everyone should also after doing so many runs, have an idea of what mobs spawn where.

For awhile I was able to list out the mobs to the AH in Bastok, Windy, to first gate in Sandy and the first couple pulls in Jeuno. Nowadays, I've stopped telling people what to expect except when certain mobs need to be killed first/last and any NMs to consider.
 
Knowing what pops has nothing to do with pulling. if one thing goes wrong you have to know how to salvage a run. for example back when we sac pulled windurst. 2+ wipes made it so clearing would nearly have been impossible if we didn't add/implement a new strategy right then and there which we adopted until we did away with that strategy all together and banished sac pulls from the run. a lot goes on behind the scenes as I've said people aren't familiar with. from watching alliances to finding a smooth speed to keep the run on. Crowd control isn't always smooth could you evade 15 mobs on you until they sleep them all finally? point is pulling is easy when you get good at it til then it complex as the run is in your hands. one mistake and the blames on you. everyones exp is on you. thats a lot to handle every run.
 
Oh I think knowing what pops is critical in pulling. How else will you know you pulled the correct amount of mobs? How else will you be able to tell others know what the situation is? If you tell them to kill he SMN NM... and what you pulled doesn't have an NM... well... you may have died in vain.

Xp is Xp. If you care so much about not losing Xp, don't join.

*** I should add: I do care however about losing XP needlessly. ie... people do something stupid at a critical sac pull which makes everyone lose XP.
 
Last edited:
no pops dont matter trust me on this. Not all pops are gaurenteed take the bst nm in bastok it can pop in 3 different spots. I never said MY EXP i said others and you dont dx much if you havent seen people jokingly complain about exp.
 
In DX it doesn't matter what pops as much because we're all assisting Garret, and he knows what to engage first anyways. If you were pulling for another LS without such a reliable tank/assistee, I think you'd find you would either be extremely frustrated by people not killing the right mobs first, or you'd actually need to be paying attention to what pops in each pull. I think I've actually seen the former :o
 
I've pulled for other linkshells the same result as dx as i make them do their jobs :D i just have to yell more is all hehe
 
Tarnak said:
I've pulled for other linkshells the same result as dx as i make them do their jobs :D i just have to yell more is all hehe
Click to expand...


yes which means they don't know what to do. so basically you're screwed until they get their act together if they ever do get it together. hence if you know what you're pulling you can TELL people what they need to look out for. i bet if you started an LS with all dynamis newbies... you *WOULD* care what you'd pull at the beginning.

by now, you don't care what pops because:
1) people in DX shohuld know how to Crowd Control (although in the runs I enter... blms rarely sleepga2 at the start and are busy killing off statues instead. in my opinion... you have sleepga2... use it. statues are slow mofo's.)
2) Garret knows what can/can't be killed first.
 
BLM's generally don't (and shouldn't) use Sleepga II at the start because you can overwrite Sleep I with Sleep II. You can kept mobs slept longer by sticking Sleepga I first, then following with Sleepga II a little later before the first sleep wears.

And yeah I've been with Tarn pulling with other LS's, it usually takes a little while for everyone to get their act together but it usually goes ok. Even if he doesn't know exactly what mobs are coming with each pull, technically all he should have to say is "kill the BST's and SMN's first", and it is done. Generally it works out, the more stubborn/idiotic people someone else usually has to slap them a few times before they get it, but it works.

That's not to say that it wouldn't be nice to have some warning from the puller, it's just not totally necessary. For example on that first pull (maybe second?) after we wiped to DL last Xarcabard, when we got manaburned. A little warning that there's 3-4 BLM in that mess goes a long way, but now I know so I can be faster on getting the BLM's who are lagging behind asleep and silenced.
 
Is it really necessary to derail an already gigantic thread with an argument over the art of pulling dynamis? :rolleyes:
 
Araius said:
BLM's generally don't (and shouldn't) use Sleepga II at the start because you can overwrite Sleep I with Sleep II. You can kept mobs slept longer by sticking Sleepga I first, then following with Sleepga II a little later before the first sleep wears.
Click to expand...

sorry maybe i should have been more clear. in the runs that i've been on. blms rarely did the crowd control without being prompted by garret. sleepga2 for me is a general term i use for crowd control.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top