50 Point Tier - Discuss

[alienmonkey]

As far as the points for Glacier AF2, I'd say 12 points is probably good. Some of the Belts/Capes are good and others aren't, for example the Duelist's Belt isn't remotely close to blowing 16 points imo. But they're so rare that 12 or 16 would probably be more right for them. It's not like every piece of northlands AF is all that great either (sup DRK)

Yes, but remember because some AF2 is garbage that's why we count it down. Not everyone who has the max amount of points to lot actually lot at the max points.

 

[Araius]

Yes, but remember because some AF2 is garbage that's why we count it down. Not everyone who has the max amount of points to lot actually lot at the max points.

Yeah true. Some of it is definitely worth the 16 (or 12) points, since we're not doing bidding, setting it to 12 or 16 would be a good idea since it's so damned rare

 

[defiant]

You may suffer some attendance issues in Xarc also if people knew they had no chance in able to lot an AF2 they want if a person with same job wants it and has 50 points if bidding was to take effect.

 

[Magos]

What about

AF2+1 - 8 points
JSE Belts/Capes - 16 points
100's - 6 points (all zones)

I don't think Glacier AF2 truly needs raising, although if people really feel it should be priced higher maybe 12 points?

With all due respect, I think this is a horrible idea. I see no reason to raise the point value for items that are rare enough as it is. As it's been stated a few times before, not all of the JSE Belts/Capes are good and, there fore, should be anywhere near the same tier as Xarc AF2. In fact, I've always wished I could see them dropped to 4 points because the vast majority of them are crap/way too situational.

AF2+1 is (a) rare enough as it is and (b) a hassle to upgrade due to the currency it costs. Again, I really dont see any reason to up the cost of AF2+1 especially when most of the AF2+2 offers such a minimal increase over the normal AF2.

100 bills are also, for the most part, pretty rare and they offer new-comers/people without a ton of points insentive to come. I'd be pretty dissapointed to see these changes implimented. =/ That's my two cents.

 

[alienmonkey]

100 bills are also, for the most part, pretty rare and they offer new-comers/people without a ton of points insentive to come. I'd be pretty dissapointed to see these changes implimented. =/ That's my two cents.

While I understand this concern newcomers can quickly get 4pts to lot AF2 in city runs. It only takes 2 weeks of dynamis less on the 2pt runs to get that. I wouldn't expect newcomers to really come for a 100. I just threw out that idea as a way to help those along who are upgrading. After all they benefit the most from the 100's and would give them a better shot at obtaining one.


I agree AF2+1 is crap for the most part, I myself have no intentionto upgrade AF2, but I just suggested the higher points for them due to how often we actually do those runs. AF2-1 can always be talked down in points before lotting anyway.

 

[Araius]

Honestly now that SOAP is essentially disbanded and DX now has those members to add to its ranks regularly, how big of an issue is incentives to give newcomers? Our numbers weren't great for Xarc last night but do you think that was a fluke, or do we seriously need to pay heed to the fact that raising point tiers = possible serious lack of numbers to even get a decent run going?

Regardless I don't see a lack of numbers being an issue in CoP Dynamis, at least. Not to sound like an ass, but honestly less newcomers = better in those probably, considering the lower capacity limit

 

[hex]

With all due respect, I think this is a horrible idea. I see no reason to raise the point value for items that are rare enough as it is.

"It's rare" is a reason to raise the point value IMO. Sure some of the capes/belts are crap, or situational, but they'll drop to a lower tier if that's the case.

If we get 1 cleric's belt in a year, why shouldn't the whm that wants to spend 16 points get it?

I do agree that the AF2+1 pieces are mostly vanity upgrades and really shouldn't cost any more than they do now.

 

[Nekio]

Seconding what Hex said... the rarer the item the more points it should cost, regardless of how "good" it is. The actual value of a piece is not set in stone... it's dependent on the player. The option to lot higher for a rare piece of gear is a good way to bleed points.

To put it another way: the number of points a member has will directly influence how much an item is "worth" to them. If someone has 50 points and has acquired every single relic, +1 and accessory for all their jobs, I'd be willing to bed that lolHydra gear would be worth a ton of points to them, because... what else are they gonna spend their points on?

 

[Araius]

Agreed @ Hex and Nek. The fact that they're rare is a reason TO raise the point tier on them. Like Alien said earlier to me, and Hex said now, if they're crap pieces of gear rather than the good ones, more than likely they'll drop to a lower tier. And if someone lots them at the highest tier, why not let them? If they've got points to blow on say a Duelist's Belt (which is marginally -worse- than a Penitent's Rope) then I say let them have at it.

The +1 stuff probably shouldn't be raised though. Very little of it is any good, and besides that you need materials, the matching original AF2, and several bills in order for it to do you the small amount of good it's capable of in the first place. But if people with fewer points need incentive to come to those Dynamis, might as well let that be it.

 

[Razorcat]

Out of curiosity, is there an option to just spend all your points on one piece of equipment? And if someone wants that piece and has more points, they will also have to spend all their points to get it ie. all or nothing type bids.

For example Koga chainmail drops and two members (A with 35 and B with 50) *really* want that piece of armor. A is willing to use all 35 points to get lot it. If B wants to lot the same piece, he must use all 50 in order to gain priority. Else person A will still retain it.

I see this option more of an extreme but quick way to get rid of points.

 

[Garret]

That wouldn't really end up being fair Razor, making someone with significantly higher points spend more points than someone with less. In theory it might work *if* you only allowed it for people within a point range, i.e. people within 5 points may lot or something, but it would end up being hard to implement and be incredibly skeweed against those without as many points.

 

[Spirn]

Wow

All I can say is FODDER IS RIGHT.
All these posts about not doing it - are absurd. People talking about detering people away from dynamis?!?!? Are you kidding me?!?!? Did you not see the list of people that have 50+ POINTS!??!

1-2 people!!! out of 350!!?!?!?? people?!?!?!? Are you JOKING?
These people talking about scaring people away and stuff is total jargin!

And another post about why people come if they 50+ points and are not spending them!?!?!? HELLO THEY WANT AF2 - THATS WHY I COME TO DYNAMIS.

I dont CARE ABOUT 100's ! DOH - If your coming to dynamis to make money - im sorry thats retarded. There are 10000000 WAYS to make gil in FFXI - Sitting in dynamis crossing your fingers for a 100 to DROP is retarded in my opinion. Money from dynamis should goto people upgrading weapons - PERIOD.

Listen you guys - ONCE IN A BLUE MOON will one person use 50 points..... HARDLY EVER!!!!!!!!!!
So sad to hear people cry about people making 2 points a run over 1 point a run..... Once you gety 16 points you can lot anything - omg. Look at how many people have 16+ points - not 20 or 30 or 40..... comon!

Anyone with 16 points can out lot anyone with 20 + 30 - 40 - CHRIST i could get 100 POINTS and some kid with 16 points is gonna out lot me on AF2 in xarcbard!??!?!? ARE YOU CRAZY!?!?!? And what that person leaves the next week and i have to get what 200 points now?!?!?!?

This is SOOO obvious i cannot believe people are debating it that much. AND NO this wouldnt mean we change the tier's of lotting at all.
YOU DONT WANT 20-30-40 Point TIERS - THAT DEFEEATS THE WHOLE PURPOSE!!! DOH.

You want 2-4-6-8-16 Tiers. IT WORKS! AND SO BE IT IF someone with 50 POINTS get their AF2 over someone who has 16 points....

THEY DESERVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HELLO!

Spent last 6 months helping you guys - missed ALOT of stuff because of it. All i ask a reward - a light at the end of the tunnel.

I think instead of thinking about yourself and how little you attend and put in work - you should think about the people who DO put in the WORK - and DO help out alot - take care of your bread winners - comon Ive worked hard last 6 months for this stuff.

As for defiant saying people will leave regardless - Whatever - that can happen ANYWHERE - anytime - to any ls - I could care less about the 'what - if's I im a solid player - I WILL COMEBACK - But I have to be rewarded first - What am i going to do Cities and Northlands till i get 100 points?!?! what then!?!??!
We gonna raise it to 100 points?!?!? people gonna get scared away then also!?!? Ugh

Please guys make this happen. People that come 1 day a week for dynamis WILL NOT BE AFFECTED BY THIS - If you have 16 points you can lot against ANYONE with 16-49 points - THATS ALOT OF PEOPLE
( ONLY 2 PEOPLE on list with 50+ POINTS - and ONE isnt HERE! And eticket doesnt even showup -) HEll I only have 40 points or so.....

Reward the people that have spent 6 months in dynamis with nothing to show for it! And if your part of this dynamis shell - YOU SHOULD BE HAPPY TO SEE PEOPLE with 50 + POINTS GET something nice!! You should be HAPPY FOR US... Not dissapointed you didnt to lot something in your few weeks of playing. Wow..... Really surprised people think that way in this LS.... Think about the people who help alot - NOT YOURSELF x.x.x.x.

 

[Elysabeth]

*I* would definitely spend 50 points on an item. I would do it in a heartbeat. Other items, like af2-1's, capes/belts, other af2s for other jobs, I can just attend more runs and gather points for them in the future. It's a long process, I know, it's suppose to be.

Anyway, most of the nay-sayers to a high point tier is because it might decrease attendance or decrease the amount of newcomers joining.

One, having a high point tier causes more people to save points. Therefore, won't more people go on more runs?
Doesn't that INCREASE attendance?

Two, having a high point tier might cause less newcomers to join, but will cause more veterans of DX to stay. I don't know, do you prefer having more inexperienced players in the run than experienced players?

I don't think the perspective of all newcomers will think a certain item is "unattainable." If anything, a higher
point tier makes an item ATTAINABLE. At least at 50 points, you will know for certain that you can get the item (or have a great chance at), instead of having to lot against 15 people every time it drops (yes, I counted how many people lotted the second koga chainmail that dropped. -_-) THAT seems more unattainable to me.

Yes, you might discourage new members, but ONLY the impatient ones.

The truth is, people will get what they want and leave, regardless of how they got it (whether at 0 points or 50). People have stopped coming after spending 16 points for af2, haven't they? At least, with a 50pt tier, that person will try to stay for at least 45+ runs, am I right?

To Alienmonkey: You say you have nothing to lot, but in reality, you just don't want to lot. Yes, I know most brd
af2 is useless, but that doesn't mean you CAN'T lot it.
Regarding someone lotting a rare item at 50pts, who's only been that said job for a couple of weeks, doesn't bother me at all. Hell, the guy's been to 45+ runs without winning anything! I was bummed about tarnak winning koga chainmail after being 75 ninja for only like two weeks, (and me, for about 2 years), but hey... that guy goes to every run as our puller. If he wants it, then fine, he deserved it. And he and aquazero are the only ones (out of 12) who have won a koga chainmail in DX to actually show up to xarc last wednesday. I can't say for everyone, but if I leveled pld to 75 recently, had 50 points, and valor surcoat fell this sunday, I wouldn't lot because I wouldn't feel I deserved it. But that's just me.

To Spirn: I feel you buddy, as I am in the exact same situation. Just hang in there and stay positive, and you and I will both get what we want soon. ^^

You don't join a sky ls and expect to get an osode the first day. Yes, you may be used to the old days of
participating in a dynamis and being able to lot your af2, but times have changed. We shouldn't be stuck with 2-3
year old rules. Getting dynamis items SHOULD be a long process, not the quick stop-and-go process that it started out as.

Bottomline, you guys are so worried about getting new members, that you're forgetting how to keep current members from leaving.

 

[onorok]

I'd burn all my points on a Valor Surcoat in a heartbeat.

 

[Nekio]

lol Spirn sure is worked up.

I'll address Spirn's argument with the logical progression of rationale I have come up with for why a 50+ tier shouldn't be implemented, with much fewer exclamation points:

1. The points system was created to determine how much effort each individual member had put into DX, and tiers were set to reflect what most people considered adequate attendance for the priveledge of lotting each piece. The point system was NEVER meant to compare the attendance of one member to another beyond the lotting tiers.
2. Implementing high cost tiers is essentially the same as implementing a "classic" points system where the person with the most points wins without competition. Call it what it is: it's an overhaul of the current lotting system in favor of a "bidding" approach.
3. If we want to implement a fair bidding system (no, "person with the most points wins" is not fair), we need to set cutoffs for who should be considered "equally worthy". That requires increasing "bidding" tiers, which would play out as increasing lotting tiers. Jumping from a 16 point to a 50 point tier would COMPLETELY SCREW the people with 30-50 points.
4. In practice, calling out tiers from 50 > 40 > 30 > 20 > etc would be a royal pain in the ass. We've already had a couple items auto-distributed before getting down to free lot with the current tiers.
5. Finally, lotting on high-demand Xarc relic WOULD require 50 points in the vast majority of situations. Take RDM for example. The hat drops approximately once every four months. That's approximately 30-40 points awarded to EACH RDM alone by the time a new hat drops. There will almost ALWAYS be someone with enough points to lot at the 50-point tier for anything in high demand, like BLM, THF, RDM or PLD.

**6. Not to call anyone out, but I doubt this same argument would have been made by the regular attendees when the points system was first introduced and everyone had an equal opportunity at hitting the high tier. I also doubt that the current proponents of a bidding system would agree to a 100-point "dedication" tier to be implemented. Or a 30-point tier. It seems strangely coincidental that some people are starting to creep up on 50 points, and all of a sudden 50 points is the "magic number" where members deserve to lot without competition.

 

[alienmonkey]

All these posts about not doing it - are absurd. People talking about detering people away from dynamis?!?!? Are you kidding me?!?!? Did you not see the list of people that have 50+ POINTS!??!

One, having a high point tier causes more people to save points. Therefore, won't more people go on more runs?
Doesn't that INCREASE attendance?[/quote]

From my experiences in the real world especially in sales, people will see the 1-2 points per run and see the 50+ point thing and their mind will tell them it's not worth it. Perception = Reality. You're mind is going to tell you whoa that 50 is a huge number I'll never get that or it will take to long... not worth it regardless of how many points people have. You want to keep the appearance of things being low/cheap to keep people interested and buying.

And another post about why people come if they 50+ points and are not spending them!?!?!? HELLO THEY WANT AF2 - THATS WHY I COME TO DYNAMIS.

I come and don't want AF2. I think it's wrong of you to say people only come to dynamis for AF2. People come for different reasons from cheering on fellow players, cause they are bored, want to help out, or because they think Dynamis is fun. Are you telling me that I shouldn't come to dynamis to help out and congratulate players I know and recognize just because I pretty much have nothing else left to lot? I got 30pts currently and if I keep coming to dynamis like I regularly do I'm just gonna keep building and building them up with no avenue to spend them on. An earlier post of mine explained that I'm taking all jobs to 37 then lvling blu and or pup. Doing that allows me to spend none of my points cause those jobs and levels have no AF2 available or I can't lot them unless it goes 0 lvl.

I dont CARE ABOUT 100's ! DOH - If your coming to dynamis to make money - im sorry thats retarded. There are 10000000 WAYS to make gil in FFXI - Sitting in dynamis crossing your fingers for a 100 to DROP is retarded in my opinion. Money from dynamis should goto people upgrading weapons - PERIOD.

That's why I made the suggestion of upping the point value of 100's. The either drop less often than AF2 or don't drop. This will force people to ultimately decide if they want to blow points on an AF2 piece now or later or blow a good chunk of points on a 100 now. 2 points is too low and allows so many people to lot a 100 but then get them points back in 1-2 runs. Raising the 100's value gives the relic upgraders a better chance at obtaining them, despite them being more points.

Listen you guys - ONCE IN A BLUE MOON will one person use 50 points..... HARDLY EVER!!!!!!!!!!
So sad to hear people cry about people making 2 points a run over 1 point a run..... Once you gety 16 points you can lot anything - omg. Look at how many people have 16+ points - not 20 or 30 or 40..... comon

You are going to run into issues and problems with people hording points to 50+ for items like Deulist Chapeu, Koga Tekko, Koga Chainmail, Thief's Kote, Gallant Surcoat, ect. All this is going to do is basically make a new 16pt tier where everyone ends up lotting against one another anyway. At the current rate of things people are gradually spending points on other AF2 pieces they want while waiting for other "certain" pieces to drop. This helps keep the flow of points more I think than watching all the THFs, PLDs, NINs, ect start to horde points and essentially unintenionally create a new higher tier.

Please guys make this happen. People that come 1 day a week for dynamis WILL NOT BE AFFECTED BY THIS - If you have 16 points you can lot against ANYONE with 16-49 points

Even though you don't think they are affected, they actually are affected. Some people have prior obligations like night classes, work, ect and can't revolve their time to attending dynamis 2x a week. I don't think those people should get shafted out of being able to lot a piece of AF2. They will ultimately be affected if people start hording points.

I don't think the perspective of all newcomers will think a certain item is "unattainable." If anything, a higher
point tier makes an item ATTAINABLE. At least at 50 points, you will know for certain that you can get the item (or have a great chance at), instead of having to lot against 15 people every time it drops (yes, I counted how many people lotted the second koga chainmail that dropped. -_-) THAT seems more unattainable to me.

Not when people that want said item just start hording the points to get to 50+. In my opinion you solve nothing in the long run this way. In the short run maybe someone will have 50pts and will be uncontested, but in the long run you're going to have every Ninja wainting that piece @ 50+pts and it's going to be the same as lotting @ 16pts.

To Alienmonkey: You say you have nothing to lot, but in reality, you just don't want to lot. Yes, I know most brd af2 is useless, but that doesn't mean you CAN'T lot it.

Personally I find this to be a big FU to me and offends me very much.

First off, I have full BRD AF2 even the crap pieces becuase I love BRD. I only wear the full set maybe 1% of the time, so no one really ever sees me in it.

Secondly, you're right I don't want to lot. I like to conserve inventory space if possible, since I seem to run out of it a lot. I don't want any WAR AF2 pieces. 1% Double Attack Rate on the legs just doesn't warrant me to waste 1 inventory slot on it, and all the other pieces are crap in my opinion or situational. I have never even touched my 75WAR since I leveled it. Why waste the space on crap I'll never ever use probably when someone else will benefit from it over me. I don't want to lot NIN AF2 head/feet and body (sort of). Only reason body is sort of is becuase I lack a Shura Togi. Those pieces have no appeal to me. I'm not looking to waste an inventory spot on somthing to walk around in whitegate in for your amusement.

Despite me not wanting to lot I still come to Dynamis week after week. Sass said earlier that she's almost at the same situation I am basically.

Third, while that doesn't mean I CAN'T lot it, surely it also means I don't have to lot it. It makes it sound like you want to force me to lot AF2 pieces I don't have and don't want which I think is just completely and utterly wrong.

Fourth, you make it sound that I have no reason or purpose to even come to dynamis with DX anymore just because I either have nothing to lot or don't want to lot on something i have no desire or use for. If that's the case I'll go do some other crap on my wednesday and sunday nights. Hell I even skip out on the Sky farming runs for the LS I'm in once a week to come to Dynamis.

I've been with DX ever since way back when Aluciont, Fodder, ect was shouting for people years ago and Aluciont would main tank. I never stopped coming aside from the fact that I quit for like a year and when i came back the original pearl was broken. If you really don't want me there because I'm not lotting AF2 then I'll just sit on my ass in the moghouse and twiddle my thumbs. It sounds like you are hinting at it, but don't want to directly come out and say it.

 

[Varda]

I'm going to refrain from what I initially was going to write, but here is another problem with a high point tier. How would people react if the rules included the following:

"You need 16 points to lot for AF in this zone, and if no one lots it at 16, it will go down to 12, then 8, etc. Oh, except if you are a rdm or a nin, in which case RedMageWonder and NinjaOfTheNight get those pieces. Everyone else has no chance for those, sorry."

I think the ninjas and rdms would reconsider whether they want to attend that run.

16 points is a barrier to entry and ensures people have put in some work for a piece. But it is also a promise that if you've done that work, you get a shot at the item. Yes, you might be lotting against a number of people, but you have a chance.

 

[Nekio]

When I was thinking about it, I thought that the only way to make higher tiers work is if they extend upward to infinity. If people want "preference" for lotting because they've put more time in that others, than you have to tier it up to the point leaders, as well as beyond. If people with 50 points want priority over those with 40 points, then they also must concede that they will pass the opportunity to lot to people with 60 points. It's the only way to make it fair.

The problem is, as the system is set up now, the distribution of points is not a bell curve, but rather a one-tailed distribution with a peak near 0 points stretching out towards the max number of points, with the high-point trail shifting farther and farther right. The farther right it shifts, the more difficult it would be for new members to garner the points to lot, regardless of how committed they are to DX. Eventually it will become such an impossible gap that people will stop joining and DX will die.

 

[Garret]

One of the things I do dislike about the possiblity of a 50-point is what other people have brought up that it will be applied to a very specific set of items in reality; Nin, Blm, Pld, Rdm 99% of the time I imagine. Very few other pieces ever have *that* much competition when they drop.

 

[Fodder]

Make it once in a lifetime you can expend 50 points on that one thing you've wanted forever? After that you're lotting with the masses. That will likely narrow the field to Duelist's Chapaeu(sp?) and Valor Surcoat.