50 Point Tier - Discuss

[Nekio]

I also like the idea of making 100's cost the identical amount of AF2 in whatever respective area they are dropping in.

I think that's a really good idea also.

A lot of stuff's

I agree that members who have put in much more time deserve better chances at winning rare AF. I simply can't stomach telling someone with 30 points (4 straight months of bi-weekly attendance) that they can't lot because someone else has 50 points (6 straight months of bi-weekly attendance). They both worked hard enough to lot that item.

 

[alienmonkey]

I also like the idea of making 100's cost the identical amount of AF2 in whatever respective area they are dropping in.

Don't you think that 16pts is pretty steap cost for a 100? Xarca AF2 is 16pts.

 

[alienmonkey]

I was curios so I copied the point list into excel here and sorted it by points.

61Predaking 54Eticket 51Gunzz4 5Tarnak 43Garret 42Spirn 40Aquilla 38Arrcee 37Onorok 35Aquazero 35Chame 34Sassafras 33Varda 32Alienmonkey 32Elysabeth(Zexxan)30Tamerlane 28Airik 28Eilistrae 28Heike 28Kooldac 28Tarja 28Valgavv 27Aelfinn 27Habil 27Mhmmimafreak 26Hilfy 26Nekio 25EdwardtheGreat 25Elvier 25Emrium 25Urameshi 24Dayson 24Modoja 24Pinacoladas 24Yaeko 23Kalia 23Spit 21Cujo 21Fodder 21Krez 21Mane

That is 41 people with points above 20. There are a total of 399 people in that point list. Out of the 41 people I regularly see attend dynamis on a consistent basis is roughly 11 people. I'm not going to name off names. People with 16+ points is only 56 people.

After look at this I don't even know why really this is a discussion. It's not like we have 40 people with 50+ points who attend every dynamis run. 8pts+ is like 107 people on that list. I suspect only about 30-40 of them maybe regularly attend dynamis if that.

Garret you probably know better than I do who attends dynamis on a frequent basis. Put the list in excel and sort it by points. See if this new point tier talk really makes sense aside from increasing the points of 100's. After looking that list sorted by points instead of name, this talk seems pretty irrelevant to me, and i don't understand why it comes up unless it's coming from someone with a lot of points upset that they don't have a piece of AF2 they want, but I wouldn't know that and I'm just speculating. Maybe people aren't actually looking at the point list like I am and since you can't see all lots done on an item in dynamis are just assuming that they lose cause too many people lotting. :/

**Sorry I can't Quote it all pretty looking like the point list, just bear with it's ugliness**

 

[Nekio]

U broke teh forumz.

 

[Garret]

I don't neccesarily think it is needed > Alien.

I posted it in part as a discussion and to see people's thoughts on it.

Also, rules discussions tend to bring other things to light, for instance that 100's could potentially cost more, even though that wasn't on the table to begin with.

What if all 100's simply cost 6 points? Regardless of zone.

That puts them roughly in the middle on point costs, but that is expensive enough to mean people regularly winning/lotting them are going to see their points go down as a result.

 

[alienmonkey]

What if all 100's simply cost 6 points? Regardless of zone.

That puts them roughly in the middle on point costs, but that is expensive enough to mean people regularly winning/lotting them are going to see their points go down as a result.

I think 6 across the board is fair. Got to remember they drop quite frequently in the cities than they do in northlands. The chances of someone being able to lot a 100 in the northlands with sponsor getting 1st is going to be slim. As the points bleed out from those lotting 100's and no one has 6 points if say like 6 100's drop in a bastok run, you'll have to count it down like you do AF2 probably.

My rationale behind suggesting upping the cost of 100's is to prevent people like myself that 1) have nothing to lot on but still come and amass points, since you want to bleed out some points. and 2) give those people upgrading relic items a better chance at obtaining at least an extra 100 a month maybe 2x 100's if they sponser a northlands run under the assumption that upgraders really aren't there in dynamis mainly for the AF2. I know this hurts me, cause I have essentially nothing left to go for in dynamis, but at the same time it helps with bleeding out your points i you intend to increase tiers and also gives upgraders a better chance at obtaining them. Like Spirn? said I'm thinking about everything as a whole and not just for myself.

 

[Varda]

Thanks for posting that list, Alien. It's always nice to have the actual data on hand for discussions. For the record, I'm #13 in that list with 33 points. I've also won a number of AF pieces since the start of the point system, so I've earned more points than are listed currently.

And I don't want a 50 tier. Not even if it was only 30 or some such.

Alien's data shows few people are even in that general area on the points list. However, I see it being a big disincentive to newer people. And really, we do need to keep getting newer people in. Older members leave, schedules change, and some people get the stuff they want and don't come anymore. I've seen a number of fresh faces this last month or so, which is partly why we've had the large attendance in the 4 cities. Our number of full runs (non-CoP) has decreased to almost zero, which is another indication that people are leaving and we need others to fill their place.

As someone else pointed out, the point system was not made to be a ranking system for lotting but a "minimum level of effort" system. People who have put in 4 runs worth of effort get to lot city stuff. People who have put in 16 runs worth get to lot Xarc pieces. This minimum level is a slight deterrent to new people, but it's reasonable. A new, high tier would be a big deterrent and benefit only a few.

I agree with Spirn that we need to consider others and not just ourselves. However, that applies to those of us at the high end too.

I'm disappointed that I lost smn af2 body last Sunday, and the winner (a friend, so hopefully it's ok if I pick on him ^_^;; ) has had 75smn for a year less than I have. I'm 0/4 after 7 months trying for it (was lotting for whm beforehand), and he has been lotting it for maybe 2(?) months. But even though a higher point tier might have let me win it, I see the cost in fresh attendees as being too high. Besides, he puts in a lot of effort every week and deserved a shot at the item.

As for raising points on 100 notes, I'm all for it. 2 points does seem undervalued, and either the 4/8 or the straight-6 sounds good to me.

 

[Fodder]

Make the 100's the same cost of an AF2 in the cities 4pts and make them 8pts in glacier/xarca since they are more rare there and the 1st 100 there also goes to sponsor.

I like this idea as they typically drop no more often than AF2.

As for the 50 point tier, there are a whole three people with 50+ points atm, one of which recently quit. The other two are Gunzz and Eticket with 51 and 54 points. What does these 51 and 54 points mean? It means that they went to at least 45 or more runs (few xarc/glacier clears mixed in) and helped other people get 200ish AF2 and thousands of currency. If someone like that wants to spend their 50 points to get ONE item after helping others get HUNDREDS of items they have my complete support. I think it's cool to reward those who give selflessly. I don't see the people who put a lot of time and effort in asking for preferential treatement, what I do see here are others seeking to recognize the efforts of those who DO put a lot of time and effort into helping others.

 

[alienmonkey]

Also I just thought of this, but don't know if it would be worth doing.

Maybe also turn scheduled glacier clears into farm runs. Before actually trading the hourglass ask shell if anyone actually needs the clear. Give a 5-10min window for response and if no one says yes or speaks up then turn it into a farm run instead. This allows more drops into pool as well as shaving a point off from the total. This gives people a better pertcentage at obtaining a drop as well as slightly help with a 1% curbage in amassing points. Not like losing that 1 point is going to make a difference, but it might drop someone 8pts with an AF2 win.

Afterall people do sign up and never show, and while not needing clear people still sign up. Why clear Glacier if no one actually currently present at the run needs the clear. Waste of time and potential droppage. I don't think I've seen it asked if anyone actually needs Glacier clear before actually going in.

 

[Sassafras]

I don't think I've seen it asked if anyone actually needs Glacier clear before actually going in.

90% of the time the people who need the clear are sending /tell to Garret or me or someone else, so we don't need to ask.

that said, I don't have a problem with double checking when we don't already know. Clears> farm is fine with me.

 

[alienmonkey]

The other two are Gunzz and Eticket with 51 and 54 points. What does these 51 and 54 points mean? It means that they went to at least 45 or more runs (few xarc/glacier clears mixed in) and helped other people get 200ish AF2 and thousands of currency. If someone like that wants to spend their 50 points to get ONE item after helping others get HUNDREDS of items they have my complete support. I think it's cool to reward those who give selflessly. I don't see the people who put a lot of time and effort in asking for preferential treatement, what I do see here are others seeking to recognize the efforts of those who DO put a lot of time and effort into helping others.

I can't speak for Gunzz or Eticket, but you need to further examine why they have so many points. Is it simply because they have nothing to further lot aside from DL cape/ring and 100's, but still regularly attend?? Need to look at the shell as a whole and not just 2 people really with 50pts.

If that's the case and they really have nothing else to lot on, but just keep coming you can't really do a 50 point tier. It just wouldn't make sense. What if Gunzz just decides to level PLD all of a sudden and blow all his points on Surcoat. While it's nice that Gunzz just got Surcoat and all, I still don't find doing this fair to everyone overall as a mass shell. I would assume Gunzz is still going to have more points than anyone else lotting PLD in the future if he still comes on a regular basis.

Just because Gunzz has nothing else to use points on, but keeps attendance up and then all of a sudden lvls and PLD, why should he beable to solely get Surcoat over someone else that attends regularly, but at the same time spends points over time on AF2 and 100's that they want regardless for usage or show. Both people put in the same amount of time and effort, it's just that one person has the opportunity to expend points more frequently than the other.

I didn't mean to pick on Gunzz, but he was the easier target since I believe he's in it for the 100's.

Resorting that point list really put this into a better perspective for me in trying to sway which way I feel rather than just blindly talking about the topic.

 

[alienmonkey]

90% of the time the people who need the clear are sending /tell to Garret or me or someone else, so we don't need to ask.

that said, I don't have a problem with double checking when we don't already know. Clears> farm is fine with me.

Ah well we can't see those. Only you can. Obviously if you are getting tells asking "Are we still going for clear?? I need the clear to get Xarcabard" then by all means asking the shell is null and void. If you don't get any tells though on a clear run, it might be nice to ask, because why clear if no one needs.

 

[Garret]

I only schedule one Glacier clear every other month, typically there are at least 3-6 people coming that run who need the clear. So in essence there really aren't many of these.

The reason it feels like we haven't done many strictly farming Glacier runs recently is that we had done *A LOT* of attestation runs, we had a number of attestation runs go sour, like 2-3 in a row or something like that, and as a result scheduled more of them.

There aren't currently many people left needing them though, so if we knock out a couple more in the next months that should cut that number down a lot.

I only schedule the attestation runs if any person is currently on a stage which requires it.

 

[Teratron]

I figured I'd add a perspective from one of the newer members that keeps getting mentioned. Even if it rarely or never actually gets used, a 50-point tier would be a large deterrent.

One of the selling points that made me decide to go with DynamisX is that while there's a point system to keep random people from just doing a run, winning, and leaving, there's also an obtainable, reasonable goal in sight. I'm not stuck essentially giving up my Sunday evenings only to never keep up with the people who can go twice a week. Once you've put in a certain amount of work, you've earned the right to get a shot at that item. I think it's a great system. It was enough to get me to join, and it's enough that I highly recommend the shell to anyone who asks.

Adding a 50-point tier is a huge psychological leap for someone considering joining. You can offer as much logical reasoning as you'd like about why it makes sense and will rarely be an issue. But for a new person considering joining, it effectively eliminates that incentive of knowing it takes just this reasonable amount of work to earn lotting rights against limited competition. It may be intended as a reward for those who have served the LS for a long time, but it will be seen as an unreasonable requirement that hurts newcomers. Why would someone want to join this LS if they had a lingering impression that it would take six months to a year's worth of work to get a chance at winning an item when they could just join a random /shout group and possibly win it right there?

I can sympathize with anyone who has built up a huge amount of points simply due to being unable to win the items they want. Pulling from earlier in this thread, Varda's a great person who I'd love to see get her SMN coat. A few individual cases like that are almost enough to make me vote for making such a change even knowing it would probably hurt me in the future. But I just think a higher tier would end up doing more harm than good in the long run.

 

[alienmonkey]

I can sympathize with anyone who has built up a huge amount of points simply due to being unable to win the items they want. Pulling from earlier in this thread, Varda's a great person who I'd love to see get her SMN coat. A few individual cases like that are almost enough to make me vote for making such a change even knowing it would probably hurt me in the future. But I just think a higher tier would end up doing more harm than good in the long run.

In the Glacier where 2x Koga Chainmails dropped I didn't win lot, and both lots I did immediatly right after lotting them were winning lots on both. I didn't piss over it. I just went and moved on. That's 2 less people in competition with me for Koga Chainmails now. You just got more competition for the item becuase it drops less. Blame SE and not the lack of high ass point tiers.

It's nice to hear from a newcomer cause you get their point of view. I side with Teratron. I think if you do wack ass tiers of like 50 points, the shell is going to be in for some hurt.

You'll have less new people coming, and maybe some people leaving. The way I figure it is that if someone attends every run in a month you average approximately 10-12 pts given the runs scheduled. 50 point tiers would take someone like almost 5+ months to hit. If you can't make every run you are looking at like a yr+ commitment to maybe even possibly lot a piece of AF2.

No newcomer would even remotely be interested in coming into that with 0 points especially when 1/3rd of the people are already 50% of the way there. 1/3rd might be exagerating it a little bit, but you get the point. You'll have to essentially almost give newcomers free points just to keep up with the massive amount of points others would have been collecting.



On a side note back to the discusiion of raising the 100's, am I correct in assuming that each month if you attend every run you accumulate roughly 10-12 pts (xarca/glacier clear, everything else farm)? If my math is right and you decide to change 100's point value. @6pts attending every run you have the potential to win 2 a month. @8pts attending every run you have the potential to win 1 a month, but 2 every month and a half. I don't know on an aggregate average how many 100's drop in a month for us, but i think that should go into determining the new point value for 100's. I think we had roughly 4 drop this month in cities (2@bastok & 2@windy?) Based on that I think 4pts is too low, 6 7 or 8pts is pretty much the sweet spot, and anything above that is silly.

 

[Manikalas]

I think that you have to realize that a point tier of 50 points would only be utilized at most once or twice every couple of months if even that. Considering the extremeness of this case, it doesn't even need to be part of the normal process anywhere but Xarcabard. That is the only place where you see af2 that is good enough and rare enough to warrant that kind of expenditure of points on a single item, therefore, most newcomers wont even notice it. If you wanted to make a rule addressing this issue that wouldn't strike fear into the hearts of newcomers, simply word it like an exception which it is:

"In the extremely rare case that an individual obtains 50+ points(5+ months of attendance without using any points), that person will be given lotting priority on one and only one item at a cost of 50 points."

That tells me that if you put in the time and effort, you WILL be rewarded, regardless.

I understand it is important to encourage new attendance, but something like this would reward those who have contributed much and received little. There are very few of these people, but it is worthwhile to give these people a break. Getting 50 points isn't easy.

 

[Garret]

Even though that's the case Manikalas to some extent it would also be part of the problem, in theory it would make the most competitive pieces even more difficult to obtain, when looking at them from the perspective of a newcomer that makes them almost unobtainable and does in fact get rid of the capacity to feel like you can win them.

Feel free to suggest whatever you want by the way folks, it's helpful to me to see what everyone has to say.

 

[Aangeliceus]

Feel free to suggest whatever you want by the way folks, it's helpful to me to see what everyone has to say.

/derail

You are already starting to sound like a Lawyer with that RFC note.

/rerail

I was not thinking of myself in that first thread of mine, I was using myself as an example... I own two AF's in my FFXI history, and I've been playing since NA PC release. :arg:

 

[Nekio]

Consider the fact that if someone has 40+ points they most likely don't have anything but 100s or a couple Xarcabard/CoP pieces to lot anyway. Who cares if they have tons of points?

Putting in a 50-point tier is the same as saying that 50 points is the cost of Xarc relic. If noone can/wants to lot at 50 points, the cost comes down to 16. That is broken.

Based on the number of people with points in the 20+ range, and the number of relics that drop in Xarc in a given YEAR, you'll see that by the time a particular relic drops again, most likely another person will have accumulated 50 points, and everyone else will have to pass. Hell, I've been with DX for nearly three years, and I've seen one pair of armlets drop. I think four total have dropped in that time.

 

[Sassafras]

/derail

You are already starting to sound like a Lawyer with that RFC note.

/rerail

I was not thinking of myself in that first thread of mine, I was using myself as an example... I own two AF's in my FFXI history, and I've been playing since NA PC release. :arg:

lol Aang~! I think I have 2 as well, but I'm happy with them & don't want more.

Oh somewhere along the line someone mentioned that we should plug the point list into an excel spreadsheet. It is an excel spreadsheet... in fact it's 3 or 4 excel spreadsheets now lol.

Everyone seems to be making some great suggestions for clearing out points. Personally I don't see excess points as an issue. The point system does the job of keeping random DX newcomer from snagging AF & running away.