Lotting Priority

Honestly from regular spawned Gods the only items I would place as needing an order are W. Legs & Osode.

One thing I'd mention is that when you mention all of these God Armors needing an order, they really aren't particularly rare. Are count on these items is limited only by the number of god pops we do any given week, if you count up the number of these items we have in the shell I'd guess it's probably a pretty hefty number.

If you are going to start doing orders for all of these God Armors then I would point out that other items we don't have drop orders for are the rarer abjurations and items from King HNM's such as;

A. Body
W. Body
W. Head
M. Legs
M. Body
M. Feet
E. Body
Defending Ring
N. Legs (I think this is what Nid drops)
Pixie Earring
Ridill
Herald Gaiters
Noritsume Kote (w/e pair Tiamat drops)

I'm sure there are others I am forgetting but compare the count of force spawned items we have compared to those of the Kings. We have probably 10 Osodes or so in the linkshell? Maybe more, not really sure. Probably 7 or 8 pairs of W. Legs. And an even higher count of ones from the basic Gods I think. In comparison we have 2 A. Body, 1 W. Body, 1 W. Head, 0 M. Legs, 2 M. Body, 2 M. Feet, 0 Defending Rings, 1 E. Body, 1 N. Legs, 2 Pixie Earring, 1 Ridill. This is not counting items from people who have quit or left the shell.

IF people truly want an order for basic God Armors then I think it would be ludicrous not to have an order for these other items which are truly rare and which we could easily not even obtain 1 of in an entire year.

Just to use Pld as an example, both Fulio & Gunman have recently changed their main to this and there are others in the shell who have Pld high enough to change it if they desired to. So this currently brings up 2 new Pld who by current rules would be ahead of others in W. Leg lotting as well as placing them on a growing list of lotting what in general are relatively rare Pld abj and items.

Honestly I have no problem with the current system. If the idea is to be a community then a lot of these item drops shouldn't matter so much. If Fulio happens to beat me on a Defending Ring tomorrow after just switching to Pld I would congratulate him and hope it was the first of many, and I would hope any others in the shell would feel the same.

I do feel that changing the way we distribute lots based on seniority is really going to be a double edged sword against newer members, as Benny said some of these items are little more than toys and status symbols to some jobs while they are needed and amazing equipment for others. Denying them to newer members in favor of old would create a cycle where new members will effectively not get items until any and all vets wanting that item have recieved it which really doesn't seem fair to new members. I assume that our newer members are planning to stay with us for a long time, and as such it can only help the LS that our rules allow them to get what is appropriate equipment for their job earlier as opposed to later.
 
We have always made distribution geared towards enhancing the effectiveness of the LS a priority with regard to drops, and I really don't want to see this change.

That being said, Osode, Noble's, and a handful of other items have been the exception here.

I really don't want to see seniority become a primary driver here, that doesn't really mesh with our philosophy.

I DO feel that we should consider weighing contribution into drops more. We have a number of members who consistently come to LS events, I always see them there putting the LS before themselves. Equipping these people first would benefit the LS more than just doing it by job. There's no point in giving a PLD W. Legs if said PLD only shows up for 1 event a week when there is an RDM who is there 5/6 times week after week, month after month.

I think it is reasonable to say, Person X, Person Y, Person Z, you lot this drop because I know the LS will see tangible results from you having it. Not just job X lot it regardless of how much you put into the LS.

There was a time when we would say "Person X, you can't lot this week for lack of putting anything into the LS" and the like, but I don't want to single people out for lack of participation. I would rather see people who do participate be honored with the hope that other members would see that you get rewarded for your hard work and dedication. I would think that would encourage others to participate more as singling people out for lack of participation will only bring them embarrassment and breed discord.

Your thoughts?
 
The idea sounds great, but who would decide if person X has contributed enough to be able to lot on the item?

Would it be a sac decision?

Im sort of partial to the idea of everyone whos attending said event to be able to say, "Ok these items drop from this mob and these people have helped out enough and it will benefit us for them to have it", before we even fight the monster to avoid a huge discussion with limited time if said item did drop.

But anyway, items for people that will benefit the ls more is best I believe.
 
It always seemed like people would be courteous far as drops go. For instance, Saturday, before pred lotted on seiryu's kote, he sent me a tell to ask if I really wanted it. But I said to go ahead and lot, not to worry about whether I get it or not. He won lot, I congratulated him, no hard feelings. Then later I won haidate. Either way it doesn't matter, since next haidate he'll probably win without competition and next kote I'll probably win. We have no sams that need haidate.. I don't think so anyway. And we're the only nin mains in the ls now.

Also have to remember that much of these items are extremely useful to the jobs listed as having a priority on them. Byakko's Haidate - There's simply nothing better for nin regardless of the situation, except for maybe Koga Hakama at night and that's a big maybe(only if you need the evasion).

It's seemed to me like there's an order for osode simply because Kirin is more difficult than the other gods, and takes longer to kill. Can't say anything on the drop rate since I've only been to 3 Kirins (not including that um, wipe.. didn't happen :p). Makes total sense that there's an order. The rest of the gods are comparatively easier to kill. I would understand if there were an order for abjurations though, and perhaps ridill and much of the stuff mentioned. They're harder to obtain. I don't think an order is really totally needed, but I'm new to the ls, maybe I'm missing something. In the end, only those that attend fafnir/nidhogg will get a chance at E. Body or Ridill. Only those that go to gods will get a chance at any of the various god items. Have to think of it that way too.
 
Fik the problem that some people have is that they are on the list below nins and mnks and brds. They come to all the pops and help to kill the gods but since they are lower on the list, they dont even get a chance to lot on things. With newer members coming in they "cut" ahead of these people because they are higher on the list and have done their month.

So while yes you and preda are courteous to eachother, MJ is alone in the corner ina fetal position (^-^v) cause he cant even lot on haidate or on sune'ate.

So thats why having some sort of change does not only get older people the items, but it also encourages more people to show up for gods because if they put in their time to the LS and help out (more god pops is really what we need now) they can actually have a shot at a drop, instead of dieing and not even being able to lot.
 
Just an idea, but two possible solutions I see are: a) changing the order. If it is really that useful for jones, it should probably be higher up on the order since it's useful for everyone else of his job. b) When there's an item someone really wants that they're low on the order of, tell a sackholder and let everyone else know, maybe the "I've been asking for this item for months now" factor can take precedence over the lotting order in some cases.
 
But then do you honestly want a nin to go without haidate or a mnk without sune-ate? Just doesn't make much sense otherwise. Making new lotting rules in favor of old members hurts new members. New members obtaining an item key to their job helps the ls as a whole, doesnt it? I'm pretty sure that's always been how the lotting system was viewed.
 
Fiko said:
But then do you honestly want a nin to go without haidate or a mnk without sune-ate? Just doesn't make much sense otherwise.
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My point was in the case where said nin/mnk rarely helps with pops, camps, etc. I'd rather see someone who does help consistently get it, as the LS will benefit more, rather than just giving it to them because they are a mnk/nin. We can pimp people out, but if they just take it and don't bother coming to events, the LS doesn't see any benefit from that. That is the point I was trying to make. Concerning this weekend, I have absolutely no issue with Fiko and Preda getting the kote and Haidate as they have been helping consistently, and I hope to see that trend continue.
 
Fiko said:
But then do you honestly want a nin to go without haidate or a mnk without sune-ate? Just doesn't make much sense otherwise. Making new lotting rules in favor of old members hurts new members. New members obtaining an item key to their job helps the ls as a whole, doesnt it? I'm pretty sure that's always been how the lotting system was viewed.
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Like most equips in this game, nothing is "really" needed. You've been doing your job for 75 levels +merits (more than likely) w/o these items.

It wont hurt, sometimes to say, "He's been here longer than I have, I can put it off for a week." I myself have done this a few times while lotting on war and even in one case let a SAM go for Kote before me, order is WAR>SAM.

I like to see everyone hooked up and happy with items, but I do believe some respect should be payed to vets. As for me I don't really want for much in this game anymore, cept for the items that I'll be putting up in "Item request".

This is my opinion in the mater and please don't take it as I'm ragging on new recruits becasue I'm not, for me it's a mater of respect for your friends. It's a side bonus when someone thanks you graciously for letting them skip ahead of you because you KNOW you'll live another week or two w/o something.

Gods are not going anywhere and will still be there even after we've conquered Sea.
 
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I like the idea of singling out those who have obviously contributed and worked hard for the LS and allowing them to lot specific items, as opposed to singling out those who have not contributed and saying they may not lot but I think in practice it will still serve as some sort of favoritism within the shell and end up weighing the amount of effort people put in. There's really no easy way to determine who puts in enough effort and who doesn't, there are always mitigating circumstance. It'd be much easier if those who think that realistically someone else may put the item to much better use than themselves would pass but that's not an easy task for anyone.
 
Just for the record, is the LS strictly opposted to a points system? We could make like a modified point system which is mostly the same as a regular point system, with the exception that the number of points one must spend in order to lot an item would changed based on item / job.

For example: Byakko's Haidate maybe costs 100 points for MNK or NIN, but 125 points for RNG.
 
What we're discussing now is a points-system thats worked out in the head, without actual distribution of points ^_^;;; I simply think that the courtesy of drops should be spread all around... If an item is say, NIN>WAR, and there is a particular WAR who wants it, there's a chance that all the NIN could get it, WAR be next on the list... and then a new NIN joins, and gets it. WAR is next again, until yet another NIN joins, and gets it... Its possible to be backed up indefinitely, and that really doesnt seem fair... Especially considering that, job A may have use for job B, but if person B has been in the linkshell for a year and person A has only been around for a month... The 'lesser job' still would have put the item to more use, simply as a factor of time.

Also, the main problem with "ok, I see you want it so I'll let you lot instead" in my opinion is the fact that a person who may want an item who isn't at the top of the lotting order may never even get the chance. If an order is NIN>MNK>WAR, and two NIN's want it, the whole courtesy thing could work. However, many times I've seen an instance like that where a WAR has asked to lot simply to receive the "you are not at the top of the lotting order", thus completely nullifying the 'courtesy' exchange... Just my two cents. Luckily, being a mage main, none of this stuff really affects me all that much ^^;

EDIT: POINT SYSTEMS

To be quite honest, I don't see the harm of a point system... If you look at the other 'legendary' NA LS's from other servers, some if not most (if not all) have point systems. Now, dont get me wrong. I DO NOT FEEL like you can just take a sackholder and make a point system... (At a bank, they don't just have an intern work out the mortgage rates, there's a reason for this) I think that any sort of point system that is expected to work should be well thought out and professionally made, not simply made by someone just because of their status in the LS. I for one like our current system, but if a point system came into necessity, and we used either a very well thought out system or even one used by an already-established Linkshell, I would not have a problem with it, because in the long-run all it accomplishes is ensuring that items go to the proper users, rewarding contribution as stated earlier.
 
Fodder said:
My point was in the case where said nin/mnk rarely helps with pops, camps, etc. I'd rather see someone who does help consistently get it, as the LS will benefit more, rather than just giving it to them because they are a mnk/nin. We can pimp people out, but if they just take it and don't bother coming to events, the LS doesn't see any benefit from that. That is the point I was trying to make. Concerning this weekend, I have absolutely no issue with Fiko and Preda getting the kote and Haidate as they have been helping consistently, and I hope to see that trend continue.
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Yeah, sorry, that was in reply to faye's post which I didn't read thoroughly enough, having just woke up.

I can see what you're saying though. And in reply to Garret's post, maybe not so much singling out those that do contribute, but those that don't? Although I can't really think of any, for someone who doesn't help out, maybe it'd only be fair if they can't lot on a specific dropped item they have priority on. If they don't participate, how could they possibly use the item in question anyway? Aside from showoff purposes >.> In fact, maybe this would encourage more people to help out as much as they can.

And to Kalia.. not sure how the ls stands on points, though I hear everyone's against it for the most part. And I'm not really sure what to say to it. People who hardly show up due to RL priorities but still help out whenever they can, would have trouble obtaining points wouldnt they?
 
From 4 pages of discussion Ive seen these things:

Older people want lotting rights
Newer people want lotting rights
No one wants to gimp other members of the shell
Having items is cool?

I dont want to put too much pressure on the sacs, but can the sacs come up with some sort of a "proposal" and we can discuss/vote on that? I think we've thrown out enough ideas to work with.
 
I'm against point systems because I feel it will make people have less desire to help the shell and more desire to earn points, i.e. quantify what they concieve of as 'helping the LS' into hard and fast numbers.

What would qualify as points? Helping an LS member with their AF3, attending an HNM camp, doing an ENM with the shell, doing a KS30 all in shell, attending god pops, attending gods, attending Dynamis, crafting items for the LS, organizing an event, getting the ToD of a camp the shell isn't at, PL'ing someone in the LS, etc, etc. I think all of these are items that most in the shell currently take for granted. And we should take them granted. If you're part of the shell at least some amount of these are things which any of us do on regular occasions and to varying degrees, and that's what gives it a community feeling, any one of us could just as easily be off doing other tasks in no way shape or form related to the LS.

Trying to assign values to what I would consider integral parts of being in an LS would just seem like an insult to how we organize ourselves.

Yes, arguments about drops do crop up, as they are right now but what would you rather do; Argue occasionally about the lotting priority or Argue about who gets how many points and how often? Either way there is going to be debate, argument, feelings hurt, people pissed off, etc, etc. Personally I'd rather deal with the lotting priority debates when they do crop up and you know what the solution to these debates is? Get everybody the items they want damnit!

So on that note let's make a little LS wish list if you will.

A. Body - x10 ? (this should cover most people for the moment)
M. Body - x7 ? (this will cover most primary and secondary Pld)
W. Body - x10 ? (I know Rdm love this but damnit us Pld want some too!)
W. Head - x6 ? (I don't know how many people really care about this, x6 sounds good)
N. Legs - x10 (Gotta keep the Drg & Thf happy)
E. Body - x6 (This should keep the War & Drk content)
Defending Ring - x20 (should cover any and all tanks in the shell)
Pixie Earring - x5 (I think only main Thf really NEED this, x5 just in case)
Osode - x20 (we all want one, don't lie)
W. Legs - x50 (everyone and their mother wants this)
S. Kote - x10 (just because)
B. Haidate - x15 (just because)
Ridill - x10 (I'm sure we can find enough people to use 10 ridill)
Shadow Mantle - x20 (not just for Smn anymore!)
Shadow Ring - x30 (need some for a rainy day)
lvl. 5 Relic Weapon - x50 (lvl. 4 SC's cmon!)
Herald Gaiters - x15 (gotta keep the mages happy!)
Noritsume Kote - x20 (for our far-eastern job combos)
Vivian Ring - x30 (how many magic users do we have?)
Cassie Earring - x10 (I'll be damned if I have to eat that 3mil for this!)
Amity Cape - x40 (extras just in case the synths don't work out)

It's almost the end of my workday so I'm too lazy to finish that list, feel free to add to it if you like but I estimate if we can claim & kill every major HNM about 30 times and acquire about 10billion gil in LS currency we should be well on our way to lowering that list down. I think I made my point :D
 
Fayevalentine said:
Fik the problem that some people have is that they are on the list below nins and mnks and brds. They come to all the pops and help to kill the gods but since they are lower on the list, they dont even get a chance to lot on things. With newer members coming in they "cut" ahead of these people because they are higher on the list and have done their month.
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Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner. You hit the nail right on the head.

I think that if all the jobs that could equip something could lot it, that would at least give people lower in the job order something more than a snowball's chance in hell of ever getting that item. Something like this might work out better than a seniority based system, which I suppose could be abused.
 
Milaana said:
With the new members that will be voted in the next few months to replace people who have left, this issue will come up again (Ex: Gunman recently changed main to PLD and needs w legs)...and I have no doubt in my mind that common courtesy will not be a solution.
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I think that was a bit uncalled for, and I don't think I have ever done anything to give anyone a bad impression about myself. And yes common courtesy would be a solution. Just as Garret once did which I thought was a very noble move on his part, I would not mind passing the W. legs over to someone who has been waiting a long time. But yes at some point I would like to get them, and the shell would benefit from it.
I like the system we have now, it sets us apart from other shells and works in my opinion.
 
Gunman said:
I think that was a bit uncalled for, and I don't think I have ever done anything to give anyone a bad impression about myself. And yes common courtesy would be a solution. Just as Garret once did which I thought was a very noble move on his part, I would not mind passing the W. legs over to someone who has been waiting a long time. But yes at some point I would like to get them, and the shell would benefit from it.
I like the system we have now, it sets us apart from other shells and works in my opinion.
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Also, Gunman would deserve it I think, because he helps out whenever he can from what I've seen. Often seen him show up to camps, help with god pops, gods, etc.
 
I think the point of not allowing all jobs that can wear an item to lot on it is that in reality not all jobs get the same use out of an item as others do.

I think it comes down to a question of which is helping the shell more and there are lots of important aspects to this.

Perhaps a possible solution is this. New member with the correct primary job to have priority will get the item, but if it is a secondary job, i.e. Rng lotting Haidate, then the person with the most seniority has priority.

That allows those who truly NEED the item their chance at it, but also ensures that the rest go to those who have more time with the shell.
 
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