Ready or not here they come

I like the following ideas as well:

Signing up and not showing up - Penalty of 0.5 points
Signing up at least 2 days in advance, and showing up - Reward of 0.25 points
Leaving early without warning - Penalty of 0.5 points

The effects of these are small individually, but over time they strongly encourage people to get in the habit of a) signing up, and b) sticking with their plans. Furthermore, it doesn't penalize someone for not signing up at all.
 
Lately I've just been signing up on every run simply because every damned other person does it whether they plan on attending or not. It was annoying for Dynamis-Valkurm because I wanted to sign up 2 weeks before it was scheduled and there was already an over-abundance of sign ups.

I still got in..
 
I don't want to get into penalizing or rewarding people based on the sign-ups. It makes it much harder to keep track of and makes it more work to organize. It will already be more difficult to organize so I would like to keep it as simple as possible.

The only time sign-ups truly come into play is when a crowded run is overflowing by the time it starts organizing.

Also the reason I no longer hold spots after the gather time is to encourage prompt arrivals. Even if someone is the first sign-up if they show up at 8:10 on a Wed instead of 8:00 they are only getting in if the run isn't already full. This has worked pretty well in the last few months since I've been trying to enforce this more I think and I don't see a need to change that.

I don't want there to be different little bonuses or penalties, they would just have a tendency to get too esoteric & hard to enforce.
 
I do think extra points for killing Dynamis lord successfully wouldn't be bad.

It would off set the 250k in materials need by melee
 
Regarding SOAP point acquisition and usage:

Garret said:
This is answered in the LS forums.
Click to expand...

It seems relevant here for those of us who do not have access to those forums.

While those not in Ultima may not entirely like this idea DX is still run through us, and is a lot of effort. I do not want to see Ultima members handicapped through a policy that essentially discludes them.
Click to expand...
How are they excluded? Unless there's some Ultima requirement for attending SOAP, they can still show up to normal DX runs and get normal attendance points.

In the end attendance & participation are what will get points & it does not handicap regular attendees outside of a slightly larger point spread among people.
Click to expand...
It handicaps regular attendees because SOAP members would be getting their city AF for free while still accumulating points to use on the only DX runs they would likely attend, the Northlands (maybe CoP). Non-SOAP attendees would have to pay points for their city AF and 100s, so they'd have less purchasing power than regular SOAP attendees.

Frankly, I was amazed to see SOAP attendees included in DX attendance points. I think this needs to be balanced between the various interests. Also, if these two are going to be tied together via points or whatever, it would help the discussion if we had a better idea of how SOAP operates.

And for the record, as a longtime DX attendee I'm in favor of a points system. I just hope the finalized rules don't overbalance in favor of one group at the expense of the other.
 
Varda I completely agree with you on the SOAP issue and yes in the Ultima threads it was stated that AF and 100s that are won in SOAP do cost the same amount of points as if they were in Dx.

I am sure that we will "play fair" and not cheat our way to more points, I dont think Fodder or Garret would appreciate that.

And I also hope that we can get a SOAP schedule up on the public threads and invite Dx members to come along as well, its basically the same only less people so you have to be on your toes, and they are always sponsored by the ultima ls bank or an ultima ls member.

Mainly SOAP needs to be more public so as to not push Dx regulars into not coming to Dx runs.
 
No offense intended to your post Varda but most of that I don't intend to discuss, but this is a general synopsis of the reasons.

DX is an open shell, but it is run by Ultima.
One of Ultima's goals is to work on relic weapons.
Because DX is open we do not keep all currency from DX, and split sponsorship.
Soap keeps all currency & exists in large part to get it.
I do not want to require those working hard in Soap to give that up since it benefits our LS greatly.
If I did not award them points they would have 0 reason to attend DX since they could not help Ultima much through it.
So because of those factors I want them to receive points.

In all honesty other options to this are either disbanding DX entirely, which I doubt many people would like, or having Ultima keep all singles & 100's from DX and use it as our currency farming shell, which I doubt many people would like, including some in Ultima. In the end this is a more in the middle approach that while not entirely fair to DX attendees also is unlikely to hurt them much since most of those who attend Soap only show up occasionally in DX anyway.

Public though DX may be I am not going to implement a set of rules that I feel is truly going to screw over Ultima. I think a points system is more fair to many DX attendees, but that one which penalizes members of my LS for working on our relic weapons is not fair to them either.
 
I'm all for a system that will help reward your most loyal attendees.

I have no gripe about SOAP being included, Dynamis shells should of been helping out people with relics for a long time and that is the purpose of SOAP, i'm all for it.

People looking at dynamis for a quick $ kind stirs me up.

Are you open to other suggestion Galka Sir?

edit: I understand the purpose that all currency in SOAP is for Ultima upgraders but there are times i wouldn't mind jumping in with them if it was allowed then do a zone i really have nothing to go for.
 
Last edited:
Question I have is this. It is known that some AF might not be at full points in DX but might be discounted like 2 points and 60+, 50+ etc.

Will SOAP be full AF2 points no matter what? If not, and same lower cost points count, who will be taking care of that in SOAP? It seems to me that winning AF2 in DX is the same as in SOAP that costs points and also gaining points is the same in both as well, but wouldnt that require someone in SOAP to make sure AF2 and points happen the same way as in DX? If so, then they would need a copy of the Points and everyones name.

Another thing is, what if XXX person has 0 points in DX and YYY have 50 points saved up. In SOAP, XXX person, in my opinion, has as much right to lot YYY item, even though they have no points. If that is the case and XXX wins it, they would stay at 0. If YYY wins the lot, then they would have 4/8/16 points deducted for DX. Obviously in DX, Points is the sole factor for winning AF2. But as said before, SOAP may deduct points for winning AF2, but are points required to win them? Seems like that decision is not only DX's to make but also SOAPs.

I know i probably made no sense but there seems to be more than meets the eye in this that needs to be worked through.

~Pitlith
 
Pitlith said:
Question I have is this. It is known that some AF might not be at full points in DX but might be discounted like 2 points and 60+, 50+ etc.

Will SOAP be full AF2 points no matter what? If not, and same lower cost points count, who will be taking care of that in SOAP? It seems to me that winning AF2 in DX is the same as in SOAP that costs points and also gaining points is the same in both as well, but wouldnt that require someone in SOAP to make sure AF2 and points happen the same way as in DX? If so, then they would need a copy of the Points and everyones name.

Another thing is, what if XXX person has 0 points in DX and YYY have 50 points saved up. In SOAP, XXX person, in my opinion, has as much right to lot YYY item, even though they have no points. If that is the case and XXX wins it, they would stay at 0. If YYY wins the lot, then they would have 4/8/16 points deducted for DX. Obviously in DX, Points is the sole factor for winning AF2. But as said before, SOAP may deduct points for winning AF2, but are points required to win them? Seems like that decision is not only DX's to make but also SOAPs.

I know i probably made no sense but there seems to be more than meets the eye in this that needs to be worked through.

~Pitlith
Click to expand...

I will never enforce points of any kind in Soap. It's clear these points apply to DX only, however Garret is saying he wants people to gain and use DX points while still in Soap. the difference is the enforcement. In DX they determine whether you can lot an item. In Soap you can always lot, but your points still go up or down. Effectively, this means that if you're a frequent soap-goer, you will likely have NEGATIVE DynamisX points (it's not possible to have negative points if you've never gone to soap though). In Soap this won't matter, lotting rules will not take points into consideration at all. But someone who wins a bunch of AF2 in Soap may have a bunch of catching up to do if he wants to get more AF with DynamisX.

That's my understanding anyway, I certainly have no intention of enforcing points to determine who can lot what in Soap.
 
Kalia said:
That's my understanding anyway, I certainly have no intention of enforcing points to determine who can lot what in Soap.
Click to expand...
Well that explains it all then. SAOP will be able to get shitload of AFs, compete against us, and complete their Relic...? I don't know, something seems wrong here. Either open both shells, close both, or completly separate both shells.

Idk, tell me if I didn't get it, but while it already seems confused and very complicated on the paper, it will be completly messed up in game.
 
I completely understand as well Kalia, but as you have in the past, I like to bring up possible scenarios and questions that I think of so that it all can be explained and known before it goes into effect. I took it that way also and believe I have full understanding of what everyone is talking about.

~Pitlith
 
Lylie said:
Well that explains it all then. SAOP will be able to get shitload of AFs, compete against us, and complete their Relic...? I don't know, something seems wrong here. Either open both shells, close both, or completly separate both shells.

Idk, tell me if I didn't get it, but while it already seems confused and very complicated on the paper, it will be completly messed up in game.
Click to expand...

Look at the big picture. That person who is going to soap would be having his poinst deducted every time, even if he could still go ahead and lot. He might get down to the point that he's -50 points, then when he goes back to DX he can't lot ANYTHING until he's built up those points again. So you're at an advantage if you want Xarcabard AF, which is what most people want.

Suppose 2 people exist. One only goes to DynamisX, one only goes to Soap. They both start at 0.

Person A goes to Soap, wins an 8 point AF2 on the first run. He's down to -8.

Person B goes to DynamisX, has to pass an 8 point AF2 because he doesn't have the points. 8 runs later person A has 0 points and person B has 8 points. Person B sees his AF drops, lots it, and they're both back to 0.

Moral of the story: it works out the same in the long run.

Also, the thing keeping people from winning tons of AF in Dynamis is, for the most part, not points, or anything like that. It's the fact that it never drops. The bottleneck is the amount of AF that drops. I've been doing Soap for like almost 6 months, and I only have 2 pieces of AF. It's not like you're just going to be rolling in the AF all of a sudden. Just because the lotting restrictions are a little more relaxed doesn't make the AF drop faster.
 
Last edited:
Lylie said:
Well that explains it all then. SAOP will be able to get shitload of AFs, compete against us, and complete their Relic...? I don't know, something seems wrong here. Either open both shells, close both, or completly separate both shells.

Idk, tell me if I didn't get it, but while it already seems confused and very complicated on the paper, it will be completly messed up in game.
Click to expand...

I don't think so.

I really hope Garret goes through with it & if you can't understand why he doesn't want to exclude his LS then i really don't have a easier way of saying it, Garret has already explained why.

Dynamis has always been unfair in so many ways. As someone told me awhile ago and i totally agree with them Valefor is so backwards when it comes to Dynamis.

If SOAP want to not enforce who is able to lot AF in their runs that is their choice, and in all honestly it's not up to you or I to dictate how SOAP is run.

SOAP to me is a LS of people trying to upgrade relics the right way, not the everyone can lot currency and make a quick $. Beleive it or not they have a lot of helpers helping them achieve that goal.

Your point on the matter does have merit though but keep in mind SOAP members so far that have spoken here have spoken with honesty. Keep picking at their posts then they will most likely not bother posting.

When it comes to the crunch it's those people in SOAP we people (DX) rely on to help with NM fights for weapon upgrades etc and to exclude them would be unfair.

I don't want to see DX break over something so trivial(sp).

Look at it this way. The more AF they get in their SOAP runs the less likely they will be lotting against you in most other zones for pieces you really want. Does it not work to your/our advantage also?

edit: read Kalia's post above :D
 
I like how Defiant & Kalia explained the position & don't have much to add.

Like I said previously though I feel that even with Soap attendees getting points those who regularly attend DX are going to be better off than they previously were, which is the point of the system, to encourage participation & attendance.

While those in DX may not view those in Soap as helping DX the truth remains that DX is run through Ultima, and a major goal of ours is to now move forward on relic upgrades. DX supports that to an extent and also tries to help encourage those working on relics on their own, which is a long & hard road.

But like I said previously, no system would be put in place which I feel isolates out Ultima members, this means that either the rules would remain the same, which is as fair to them as anyone who attends on their first run, or that they are included somehow in the point system, which is what I have decided on because I feel this system is worth trying and that it has a chance to work.

Regarding DX members point deductions they will not be getting AF2 for free just becuase they are attending Soap. But the primary purpose of Soap is currency, not AF2, and I will fairly reduce their points in line with DX. But will leave it up to Soap attendees to decide how best to fit in with this point system, but if someone in Soap wins 10 pieces of AF2 in a month then it's fair to say they've been paid off well and will not have points to spend in DX for a bit. But if someone has religiously been attending Soap to help get currency without winning any AF2 then they would be right alongside those who attend DX.

I also think that if people occasionally wish to attend Soap that Kalia & those who organize it may be open to additional people, but that's something to ask them. I have my hands full enough dealing with DX to not need to stick them into how they choose to run Soap.


Edit: I have no intention of telling Kalia or them how to run Soap or its lots. The points they receive towards DX will essentially be close to a filter that is provided after their runs and not impact their runs.
 
Kalia said:
.

Suppose 2 people exist. One only goes to DynamisX, one only goes to Soap. They both start at 0.

Person A goes to Soap, wins an 8 point AF2 on the first run. He's down to -8.

Person B goes to DynamisX, has to pass an 8 point AF2 because he doesn't have the points. 8 runs later person A has 0 points and person B has 8 points. Person B sees his AF drops, lots it, and they're both back to 0.
Click to expand...

From what I understand, there is not going to be any negative points. 0 is the least that one may obtain.

~Pitlith
 
Does it suck to get out lotted on something for a long time? Yes

But has that in any way been a result of unfairness or an unequal chance? No, Everyone have the same equal chance everytime they enter dynamis.

Points systems always sound good in theory but so does communism.

I liked the old way, everyone pays the same, everyone gets an equal chance at an AF or 100 coin. And everyone had a chance to come out with somthing at the end to make it worth their time. Even if it was just 2-3 coins.

Everytime a new rule is added it gives me less of a reason to attend on wednesday nights. Including the lv requirement rule.

If there was more incentive for me like af for a future job, I would attend every week I was able. However, as things stand I can only lot a 100 coin, which frankly I'm not interested in.

I feel that people who get AF and don't come anymore is simply because there is nothing really else for them to gain, give them an incentive for some gain after they got their AF, and peeps are not gonna ditch on the shell.

If this newly add idea's is a result of badgering, bitching, crying or whatever....Tuff luck for them. It was a perfectly even system before it got screwed with.

I if someone is gonna bitch and wine about the current system they should either
A. Not come
B. Make their own dynamis shell
C. STFU and deal with it

I may not know they way to succeed, but they way to fail is try to make everyone happy. - Bill Cosbey (I think...)

And to be honest I don't think anyone is gonna be happy with buying a stack of sleep pots, Opo necklace, IC wing, Reraise hairpin. Without even having a chance to lot on a shadow mantle/ring.

Maybe this is a little bit of a rant on my part, But I'm sick of seeing good things get messed because of a few whinning bitches.
 
Last edited:
Well this is just a test, if it totally blows gar said he'd put the old system back.

Communist is good on paper, and it did survive for around 70ish years? Just needs a harsh dictator :p

---

Also on 100s value, possibly make them 6? they are much more rare than AF in dynamis, at least 1 AF usually drops in dynamis, but not always the case in 100s.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top