Ready or not here they come

[defiant]

Most shells now you have to be of level to wear AF2, only one i know where there is no requirement is mission hunters.

RR pin should be a requirement always unless you wanna take the risk of R1.

Before we had to pay to enter and take the risk of gaining nothing in return (singles, AF, materials) but now every run is a sponsor and you get to lot AF + materials at no cost to the people going with the exception of Xarc.

On that note the sponsor is getting much more cheaper currency then he would bazaar shopping. I can't see how the new changes made to this shell where bad in that respect.

Maybe i am biased on this part but if you really want a good chance of defeating Dynamis Lord then you would bring what is needed. Is obtaining that shadow mantle / ring worth it?

Hell bring the ingrediants for sleeping potions to dynamis i will make them for all those that need them, including Tp wings, poison potions, echo drops etc.

The money you save from not paying to enter dynamis these days is well worth it.

I can only attend Sunday runs myself due to RL commitments so i will already be at a disadvantage having to attend 16 weeks just to be able to lot in Xarc but i know it will pay off in the end.

The money you save from not paying to enter dynamis these days is well worth it.

 

[Fiko]

If this newly add idea's is a result of badgering, bitching, crying or whatever....Tuff luck for them. It was a perfectly even system before it got screwed with.

Was it? Was it fair for a random walk-in to come to Xarc, and win the most coveted piece of AF2 while those that have been going for months get squat?

Being rewarded for coming to DX for a long time is the best thing that could happen to this shell and is something we've needed for a very long time.

 

[Garret]

Everytime a new rule is added it gives me less of a reason to attend on wednesday nights. Including the lv requirement rule.

This has been a rule in effect for almost forever. I'm not sure of the rules from the few months DX was around before I joined but a level requirement has been in effect for at least close to 2 years.

If there was more incentive for me like af for a future job, I would attend every week I was able. However, as things stand I can only lot a 100 coin, which frankly I'm not interested in.

I feel that people who get AF and don't come anymore is simply because there is nothing really else for them to gain, give them an incentive for some gain after they got their AF, and peeps are not gonna ditch on the shell.

I'm not sure how long it takes someone to level a job to 75 now but if you're looking for Xarcabard AF2 that's currently at 16 points. So it takes about 2 months of solid attendance to get AF2 for it. If it takes you 2 months to get a job to 75 you would then have the points ready to lot that piece of Xarcabard AF2. You portray an alternative that you currently can not lot AF2 for a job and thus will not attend until that job is at least 70+. One system would mean you would need to attend those months if you want your AF2 when it hits 70+, the other means you could never come for 2-3 months & then come in & win AF2. How does that benefit DX?

To be quite honest why should I cater DX's rules to people who do not attend under the current system? If people have won prized AF2, such as Blm Hat, Thf Hands, Rdm Hat, Pld Body, etc, etc & only now attend 1 run in 20 then why should I now relax the rules so they could come back to potentially win AF2 for a job that can't even wear AF2? That seems completely backwards to me.

Most of the support I have gotten for this system is from regular DX attendees, of which there are many, as well as to varying degrees from Ultima members, these groups are, by & large, those which let DX keep running effectively.

As far as whether the system works or is missing up a good thing, the good thing about DX currently is that, by & large, we have very successful runs with a solid amount of AF2. I would not describe our lot system as successful at all, it's very random, and the payoffs are a complete crap shoot.




I think Faye asked about raising the cost for 100 bills. While I thought about this the reason I wanted them to be low cost was a compromise towards encouraging those who do not come as often. If they are low cost then people can more easily have the option to lot them & not need to have attended a lot to have a chance at getting one. While more AF2 usually drops than 100's more 100's usually drop than any single piece of AF2, on average. So they are more common in a sense, and also typically not as 'valuable'. A 100 bill goes from 2-3mil, how much would people pay for a piece of AF2? That's why I want to assign them a lower value.

 

[Aura]

From what I understand, there is not going to be any negative points. 0 is the least that one may obtain.

~Pitlith

If you only do DynamisX, then yes. You wouldn't be able to have negative points because the only way to make your points go down is to use points that you have by lotting things. But if Garret wants Soap lots to be deducted from points, but you can lot regardless of how many points you have, then you could lot an 8 point AF in Soap while you have 0 points. The only way to have this affect you when you carry over to DynamisX is to just say you have -8 points.

The example I was giving about the person with -8 points went negative via a Soap run.

 

[Aelfinn]

I understood it more as 0 points is the floor, once you hit it you cannot go below.

 

[Aura]

It was a perfectly even system before it got screwed with.

If, by perfectly even, you mean that it gave the same opportunity to be rewarded to someone who has never done DynamisX in their life as it does to someone who has done DynamisX every single run since its inception, and who has never failed to miss a single run ever, then yes it was perfectly even.

How about that person whose name I won't mention, but who basically stopped doing Dynamis permanently, and has accepted the fact he will continue to play the game without ever obtaining AF2 because he's done over 40 Dynamis runs and never won a single piece of AF2, always having been outlotted by someone who was doing their first Dynamis ever? (he recently won one piece in Soap, I think). Is it perfectly even to that guy?

Or how about those people who set aside 3-4 hours of their time every 3 days to come with DynamisX, and when it's time for Xarcabard all of a sudden they're lotting against 12 people they've never seen before. Is it even to those people?

I understood it more as 0 points is the floor, once you hit it you cannot go below.

So we should stop letting people lot in Soap once they hit 0 points? That's not going to happen >.> It doesn't make sense to do it any other way than allowing negative. If you tell people they can't lot if it would put them negative, then all of a sudden one of Soap's primary reasons for existance (easier AF requirements) is eliminated. If you tell people they can lot if their points would go negative, but that it would floor at 0, then you give an obvious unfair advantage to people who only do Soap, undermining the system that Garret is trying to create. Am I missing something Garret?

 

[Garret]

Edit: Ninja edit since Kalia replied before me. Real post coming up.

 

[Garret]

So we should stop letting people lot in Soap once they hit 0 points? That's not going to happen >.>

As I said before, and I realize Kalia isn't adressing me with this comment, Soap can lot however they want.

My aim here is in making a reasonable shadow point system in Soap which applies to DX. So essentially, how many DX points someone has has no effect on what they can lot in Soap, but, how much AF2 someone wins in Soap will impact how many points they have in DX.

People who attend Soap have the benefit of being able to lot any AF2 they want, and they are able to accumulate points for DX, however, the AF2 they win will affect their DX point total. I think the replies from those who go to Soap indicate they think this is relatively fair? I'll let Kalia reply to this again though.

 

[Jasmin]

Garr:

Are u goingt to ceep track of the points?

When it does start do we all start at 0 or?

 

[Aelfinn]

I understood it more as 0 points is the floor, once you hit it you cannot go below.

So we should stop letting people lot in Soap once they hit 0 points?

i meant more that if you have 0 points going into the run, and win an AF ... instead of going into negative you would just loose the point you would have gained that run, so then you would be where you started at the beginning of the run.

im not trying to imply that soap would be in any way changed/affected by the new DX rules.

 

[Garret]

Aelfinn check some of the discsussions in reflections at the moment. I think they answer most of your questions.



Jasmin, I would keep track of points, or whoever organizes that run if I was unable to attend. I was planning to start everybody at 0 points when they are implemented. I could start myself off at 100 if you'd rather though =P Otherwise the new system would retroactively penalize people.

 

[Yuriku]

Was it? Was it fair for a random walk-in to come to Xarc, and win the most coveted piece of AF2 while those that have been going for months get squat?

How about that person whose name I won't mention, but who basically stopped doing Dynamis permanently, and has accepted the fact he will continue to play the game without ever obtaining AF2 because he's done over 40 Dynamis runs and never won a single piece of AF2, always having been outlotted by someone who was doing their first Dynamis ever? (he recently won one piece in Soap, I think). Is it perfectly even to that guy?

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally sympathic to someone who done that many dynamis runs without a single piece of AF. However, is this because he was at any disadvantage to anyone? or an unequal chance at lotting?

In my opinion, this like somebody grandfather who played the lottery every day of his life, then complains to the lottery comission about not winning and say they should give him a the next lottery pool for free, and imo thats just silly.

Is the lottery system anyway unfair?

A person who attend dynamis-xarcabard more frequantly is already gonna have increased odds at getting something. And if they attend the other zones on a regular basis, they will have increased odds of getting something in that zone also.

All this seems do is stack a tons of benifits to someone who has more playtime, and penalizing someone who doesn't.

Up till now, nobody can say they had an unequal chance at lotting an AF when it drops.

 

[Jasmin]

Aelfinn check some of the discsussions in reflections at the moment. I think they answer most of your questions.



Jasmin, I would keep track of points, or whoever organizes that run if I was unable to attend. I was planning to start everybody at 0 points when they are implemented. I could start myself off at 100 if you'd rather though =P Otherwise the new system would retroactively penalize people.

Um.. so how do we lot AF if we have 0 points? <.<

 

[Tarnak]

- There will be no negative points. If nobody can afford an item which drops it will go down in tiers, i.e. for Shadow Ring if nobody has 20 points to spend, it would go to 16, then 8, then 4, then 2, then 0. It will cost that new amount of points. This will also apply to items people do not wish to spend points on. For instance, if Drk AF2 head drops and nobody wants to spend 16 points the price will drop until it is free. People must still have the job high enough lvl to wear the item being reduced, however, if an item is reduced to the 4 point level, people 60+ in that job may lot, and if to the 2 point level, 50+. If an item goes down to 0 points it is free lot.

ding ding

 

[Garret]

Um.. so how do we lot AF if we have 0 points? <.<

Did you read the section of the rules that goes over what happens when nobody has enough points? :tounge-1:

In my opinion, this like somebody grandfather who played the lottery every day of his life, then complains to the lottery comission about not winning and say they should give him a the next lottery pool for free, and imo thats just silly.

Is the lottery system anyway unfair?

The better question is why should DX be a lottery? I think a better example would be a business in real life. It has employees & every year they receive a raise. Is it fair if they are distributed randomly every year or is it more fair if the company has employee evaluations each year and distributes them based on performance. We currently use the former system, people who have been with the company longer have had more chances at randomly getting a reward, but that does not mean they are being rewarded for their performance.

The crux of the argument is not whether or not everyone has had an equal chance at lotting previously, the crux of it is why should people who rarely attend have the same chance to win an item as someone who attends often. The rules account for those with less playtime by putting a point cap on AF2, so that they can 'catch up' as it were. But I think many of those who don't attend runs do it because they don't care about the other zones, and only want to come to the runs where they have something to win. How would those same people feel if the situation were reversed and they could not win the AF2 they want because nobody wanted to attend the runs they need for their AF2? Or if all of the organizers finished winning our AF2 & simply stopped running DX all together?

Using myself as an example, I personally have almost no reason to attend all 4 of the major cities, especially a run like Windurst which is typically much more difficult to run, all of which my small chances of winning a 100 bill are my only motivation to go, item wise. Why do I attend these except out of the obligation I feel at continuing to run DX & ensuring it is successful? That is the same feeling that many veterans & loyal attendees have, and I have gotten next to 0 resistance from them on these changes.

Quite honestly those who attend only that 1 Xarcabard a month are effectively capitalizing on the efforts everyone else makes in keeping these runs going in the first place. People should have to work for their AF2 in much the same sense as they work for items in their own LS. If people only showed up to 1 LS event a month & expected to win great items then I imagine they would have another thing coming to them.

 

[Lylie]

All this seems do is stack a tons of benifits to someone who has more playtime, and penalizing someone who doesn't.

I think everyone is more or less missing this point.

The new point system will only benefit people with high play time, while the people with less play time, or in an Endgame LS that does stuffs on Wednesday / Sunday, will just watch others get the cool AFs.

Now to clarify something, if person A has 10 points, person B has 8. A 6 points AF2 drops. Both will be able to lot right?

Also, the SAOP thing is still a problem. How will DX people know what is going on in SAOP, how much points SAOP people have, what AF2s droped, who got what? etc. Not that I don't trust Kalia or Archain, but mistakes happen.

 

[Tarnak]

The new point system will only benefit people with high play time, while the people with less play time, or in an Endgame LS that does stuffs on Wednesday / Sunday, will just watch others get the cool AFs.

It also helps those with not so much play time. Thus point caps. If you have something else preventing attendance well. I really dont know anything else to say but a point system is STILL your best bet as if you attend less runs. Your chances of a random AF just went down substantionally. Yet if you get points and have enough to lot a 8point item you have just as much a chance as someone with 10+ points. (set points not a bidding system thus why its not rewarding high play time over those w/o said play time.

 

[Garret]

I think everyone is more or less missing this point.

The new point system will only benefit people with high play time, while the people with less play time, or in an Endgame LS that does stuffs on Wednesday / Sunday, will just watch others get the cool AFs.

I think people are missing the point that people with less play time can still accumulate points for the AF2 they do want, it will just take them a longer period of time to get that many points. I feel there are enough people who regularly attend that will benefit from this system and I am not going to cater DX's rules to the schedules of cherrypickers.

Now to clarify something, if person A has 10 points, person B has 8. A 6 points AF2 drops. Both will be able to lot right?

There are currently no AF2 which have a value of 6 points. But it is stated in the rules that anyone with enough points may lot. If an AF2 costs 8 points & one person has 16 points, the other person has 8, then they could both lot for it. No greater priority is given to those with more points outside of being able to win more over time.

Also, the SAOP thing is still a problem. How will DX people know what is going on in SAOP, how much points SAOP people have, what AF2s droped, who got what? etc. Not that I don't trust Kalia or Archain, but mistakes happen.

DX Points will be kept track of in an excel file of some sort, people earning points in Soap would be included in it. As far as who got what and what is going on in Soap they won't, points will be kept track of, what AF2 they win will be deducted, however I'm not going to deduct 4 points from someone in Soap if Bst AF2 legs gets freelotted and someone with a lvl. 15 Bst wins it. If someone is winning Mnk Hands for their 75 Mnk then 4 points would be deducted.

 

[Yuriku]

The better question is why should DX be a lottery? I think a better example would be a business in real life. It has employees & every year they receive a raise. Is it fair if they are distributed randomly every year or is it more fair if the company has employee evaluations each year and distributes them based on performance. We currently use the former system, people who have been with the company longer have had more chances at randomly getting a reward, but that does not mean they are being rewarded for their performance.

So to a certian degree your trying to take luck out of the equation, and have AF be soley based on participation, as well as more individual control to shoot for a specific item. Which I can fully understand, and respect as an opinion, and it does begin to sell me on the idea a bit more. I just hope it works the way you intend in the long run.

I guess my only other question would be...

Since I cannot make a few dyanmis events on my main account due to the 3 day time limit. Could I earn a Yuriku point while I attend as Esko?

I know a few other peeps have borrowed accounts as well.

 

[Garret]

So to a certian degree your trying to take luck out of the equation, and have AF be soley based on participation, as well as more individual control to shoot for a specific item. Which I can fully understand, and respect as an opinion, and it does begin to sell me on the idea a bit more. I just hope it works the way you intend in the long run.

In a nutshell, yes. However, luck will still play a factor because more points does not mean you are guarenteed a piece of AF2, if 5 75 Rdm have 16+ points and all are lotting Rdm Hat then you still need to beat the other 4 to win it. And luck will still play a factor in things like 100 bills, which will be a relatively low point cost so that people who do not attend as often can easily lot them if they so desire. I think realistically it will through some growing pains in implementation, for instance after X amount of time a lot of people are going to have saved up 16+ points, and there may still be a bottleneck of AF2 for some Xarcabard pieces, however once some people have spent points on this it should begin to even out, but it will likely take some time before it truly feels balanced when there will be a variety of people across all point levels seeking city AF2, Xarc AF2, 100's, etc. I hope some of these are areas which can be adressed through scheduling. If we have 20 people sitting on 24 points then maybe scheduling more Xarcabard & Glacier runs will help ease the congestion.

Since I cannot make a few dyanmis events on my main account due to the 3 day time limit. Could I earn a Yuriku point while I attend as Esko?

I know a few other peeps have borrowed accounts as well.

I want to tentatively say yes to this, however, one thing I do not want to see is people trying to dual box for extra points or try to double dip into the point system. So if people are attending as an alternate, for whatever reason, then that implies they can still only make 2 runs a week to earn points for. Hopefully that makes sense, but I want to stress I do not want people dual boxing to earn extra points, even if some of those points were on a friends account.