Ready or not here they come
- Thread starter Garret
- Start date
Umm... I hadn't even considered whether people could give their points away to someone else. I'm not sure to be honest but would welcome any input from others on this. Instinctively I want to say no because it would seem to feel like double dipping on points and I'm not sure how it could be implemented effectively. I would not want people 'borrowing' points in a run from their friends if they needed more to lot the AF2 they want, it would not seem fair to me.
As far as if someone could essentially declare they want all their points to permanently be simply given to someone else, if they had no AF2 they wanted and if they trusted their friend to share 100 bills or something they may win with the points I'm also not sure. I can only think people would do that in cases where they literally had won all the AF2 they ever wanted & came truly for the enjoyment of Dynamis.
In terms of a point cap I had not thought to implement one. I would lean towards there not being a point cap, but if one were put in place it would essentially mean people either need to start winning 100 bills to spend their points before they hit it, which may be difficult if 100 bills are low cost, or to spend it on AF2 they may also have bad luck winning. If there was a point cap eventually regular attendees would reach it & it would be unmotivating to no longer feel a need to attend at that point. I think people will naturally adjust to what they feel is 'enough' points & if at that point they feel like only attending the Xarcabard runs for their AF2 there becasue they've put their time in, so to speak, then that's a fair determination for them to make.
As far as if someone could essentially declare they want all their points to permanently be simply given to someone else, if they had no AF2 they wanted and if they trusted their friend to share 100 bills or something they may win with the points I'm also not sure. I can only think people would do that in cases where they literally had won all the AF2 they ever wanted & came truly for the enjoyment of Dynamis.
In terms of a point cap I had not thought to implement one. I would lean towards there not being a point cap, but if one were put in place it would essentially mean people either need to start winning 100 bills to spend their points before they hit it, which may be difficult if 100 bills are low cost, or to spend it on AF2 they may also have bad luck winning. If there was a point cap eventually regular attendees would reach it & it would be unmotivating to no longer feel a need to attend at that point. I think people will naturally adjust to what they feel is 'enough' points & if at that point they feel like only attending the Xarcabard runs for their AF2 there becasue they've put their time in, so to speak, then that's a fair determination for them to make.
Yuriku
Sand Angel Artist
Lylie
Annoying French person
After these 7 pages of reading and questions, the Point System doesn't look as bad of an idea as I thought. Only thing worrying me is, you'll have to keep track of everyone's point, for both shell...
It would be nice to publish (make a sticky post under the Trophy post?) the point list, in order to let everyone know how many point, everyone has.
About people giving their point to someone else, this would totally make the system point useless. From my understanding, system point is here to reward your own effort, and not to help someone's friend who doesn't deserve it. I'm sure lots of people would see really unfair to see someone who doesn't deserve something, suddenly having some points to lot, and win an AF2, when this person never came to a Dynamis.
It would be nice to publish (make a sticky post under the Trophy post?) the point list, in order to let everyone know how many point, everyone has.
About people giving their point to someone else, this would totally make the system point useless. From my understanding, system point is here to reward your own effort, and not to help someone's friend who doesn't deserve it. I'm sure lots of people would see really unfair to see someone who doesn't deserve something, suddenly having some points to lot, and win an AF2, when this person never came to a Dynamis.
Tarnak
Naked Thief
Seconded i mean if you are on a borrowed account i dont see the issue because its still you putting the time. Giving points however i dont like that idea then someone can go "lend me points so i can win blm af hat even though i never come" which then nullifies the whole purpose of the point system.
Keeping track of the points is easier than it may seem.
When I make parties I write down everyone's name. At the end of the night if people left early without warning I could X them off that list to not receive points.
Otherwise I just go through an excel file & tack 1 more point onto their total. For the trophy post I also already write down what AF2 people get each run, all I would need to do is tack the point total next to it when I write it down, i.e. if they get Drk AF2 head for 4 points instead of 16, and then deduct that from their point total. It's a bit more work but really not that much more than is currently done.
As far as posting points I would like people to be keeping track of their own, and if they have questions they can ask me. I'm not sure what an effective way to post a list that large would be. I'm not that big of a techie. Open to suggestions here.
When I make parties I write down everyone's name. At the end of the night if people left early without warning I could X them off that list to not receive points.
Otherwise I just go through an excel file & tack 1 more point onto their total. For the trophy post I also already write down what AF2 people get each run, all I would need to do is tack the point total next to it when I write it down, i.e. if they get Drk AF2 head for 4 points instead of 16, and then deduct that from their point total. It's a bit more work but really not that much more than is currently done.
As far as posting points I would like people to be keeping track of their own, and if they have questions they can ask me. I'm not sure what an effective way to post a list that large would be. I'm not that big of a techie. Open to suggestions here.
I think Aelf and I have been misinterpreted.
If person A has 8 points, person B have 0 points.
SOAP does dynamis Beaud, PLD legs drop, Person A and B lot them.
1) If A wins, their DX points in Excel spreadsheet will go down to 0 (since it costs 8 points)
2) If B wins, their DX points will remain at 0, since Garret has stated you cannot go into the negatives with DX.
That is the easiest way I could put it to get my question out, or point across. Unless something has changed, that is exactly what I have read and understood.
SOAP doesnt care about points when lotting AF2, but has been stated DX WILL care. DX will give points for participation in SOAP and also take away points for winning AF2 in SOAP. If we are playing by DX's Excel Spreadsheet Point Rules, and one of those rules state 0 points is the lowest one may go, then ultimately people can attend SOAP, win AF2, and still remain at 0 points in DX.
Please let me know if something changed but that is easiest way to put what i meant.
~Pitlith
If person A has 8 points, person B have 0 points.
SOAP does dynamis Beaud, PLD legs drop, Person A and B lot them.
1) If A wins, their DX points in Excel spreadsheet will go down to 0 (since it costs 8 points)
2) If B wins, their DX points will remain at 0, since Garret has stated you cannot go into the negatives with DX.
That is the easiest way I could put it to get my question out, or point across. Unless something has changed, that is exactly what I have read and understood.
SOAP doesnt care about points when lotting AF2, but has been stated DX WILL care. DX will give points for participation in SOAP and also take away points for winning AF2 in SOAP. If we are playing by DX's Excel Spreadsheet Point Rules, and one of those rules state 0 points is the lowest one may go, then ultimately people can attend SOAP, win AF2, and still remain at 0 points in DX.
Please let me know if something changed but that is easiest way to put what i meant.
~Pitlith
I think I am currently at thinking DX people can theoretically go into negatives because of the differences & to be fair. But because of how some AF2 is free lotted to lower lvl jobs in Soap I think only on occasion will they be charged a full value for them because of their job levels, i.e. if they won that af2 for that job in dx how many points would it cost them. It's both a benefit & a penalty.
Giving points away or borrowing seems to beat the purpose of the whole point system imo.
Maybe a cap is needed to make people spend points? so you don't have everyone lingering around 16 points saved for that Xarc zone.
Maybe 30 points?
I'm not really fussed about a point cap to be honest as the chances of me only going once a week and getting to 30 would take forever
It's going to take people awhile to get to 16 anyways though i would hate to see people passing up AF2 they would really like but rather save for something else and playing on the idea others will do the same in hope to get cheaper AF2
Maybe a cap is needed to make people spend points? so you don't have everyone lingering around 16 points saved for that Xarc zone.
Maybe 30 points?
I'm not really fussed about a point cap to be honest as the chances of me only going once a week and getting to 30 would take forever
It's going to take people awhile to get to 16 anyways though i would hate to see people passing up AF2 they would really like but rather save for something else and playing on the idea others will do the same in hope to get cheaper AF2
I'm sorry but I dislike this entire idea. No matter what you say, it puts people at a disadvantage who work more, can only attend one run a week, etc. I'm very turned off by this idea.
If you would simply just deny nobodies a pearl to come anyway, who are going to lot AF2 and never return, you would solve 90% of the problems in DX. Give them trial runs or something at least. See who actually wants to stay and who just wants to gobble up AF2 and leave.
People are going to, under this system, accumulate points because they have no job or social life or homework or simply don't want to spend every wednesday or sunday in dynamis, and dominate in this linkshell. That's really ridiculous that you are basically penalized because you can't make it each and every time. Not necessarily because you are cherry-picking, or you would rather do A or B or C during dynamis runs that don't drop anything for you, but because you have other responsibilities that are more important than a game that most of us play for liesure. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
If you would simply just deny nobodies a pearl to come anyway, who are going to lot AF2 and never return, you would solve 90% of the problems in DX. Give them trial runs or something at least. See who actually wants to stay and who just wants to gobble up AF2 and leave.
People are going to, under this system, accumulate points because they have no job or social life or homework or simply don't want to spend every wednesday or sunday in dynamis, and dominate in this linkshell. That's really ridiculous that you are basically penalized because you can't make it each and every time. Not necessarily because you are cherry-picking, or you would rather do A or B or C during dynamis runs that don't drop anything for you, but because you have other responsibilities that are more important than a game that most of us play for liesure. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
I think you're missing the point. There's no penalty anywhere. After you attend 4 dynamis runs (which, let's be honest, is almost nothing) you're on level playing field for a city AF as someone who has attended 400 dynamis runs. It doesn't seem too much to ask that a person attends 4 runs with the linkshell before they have the privilege of lotting an AF. Additionally, your points never "decay" over time. If you have 4 points, you have 4 points until you spend them on an AF2.
I guess I'm failing to see where the penalty is. how is someone who works a lot at a disadvantage?
I guess I'm failing to see where the penalty is. how is someone who works a lot at a disadvantage?
No, I'm not really missing the point. Someone who goes to a run without any points does not have the same chance of getting af as someone who has 400 points. The person with 0 points will not have the opportunity to lot a single piece of AF unless it passes down the lines. These people will be discouraged to go to any dynamis at all.
If you're saying that after time, people will rack up points and be on level playing field with everyone else... oh wait.. this is how it is now...
If you're saying that after time, people will rack up points and be on level playing field with everyone else... oh wait.. this is how it is now...
Aelfinn
Moose
to kinda quote yuriku earlier
"The key to failure is to try to please everyone all the time"
90%+ of the people here seem to like this idea. As the title says, "Ready or no here they come" soo... instead of bashing this idea, how about some constructive comments on how to make it foolproof, unbiased, etc... cause wether or not you may happen to like it, it's gonna happen.
"The key to failure is to try to please everyone all the time"
90%+ of the people here seem to like this idea. As the title says, "Ready or no here they come" soo... instead of bashing this idea, how about some constructive comments on how to make it foolproof, unbiased, etc... cause wether or not you may happen to like it, it's gonna happen.
People who play less can still accumulate points, it takes them longer to do so but once they have they are on an equal footing with anybody.
If someone wants to attend one run a month for the next 2 years then they can win a Shadow Mantle with an equal lot against someone who attend every run for 2 years, discounting any chances that person may have had to win it earlier.
The truth is people don't attend for a variety of reasons; busy RL schedules, busy in game schedules, disinterest, already having their AF2, etc. I really don't see the need to cater to those who don't attend for most of the latter reasons, if people want AF2 they should put the time into an event to get it, just like any other event in this game. The current system rewards nothing, and I feel that is unfair to those who put more work into it.
If someone is completely incapable of attending any Dynamis for months at a time due to their RL schedule then I would ask why they should expect to win AF2 in the first place? They obviously have a very busy schedule and have to assume their chances are pretty bad currently anyway when they can only attend 1 or 2 runs every few weeks, if that. And still, under the current system they can still build up points to lot items, taking longer if it's Xarcabard AF2 they are set on.
If everyone in the LS played on such a restricted schedule, however, we couldn't even run DX. Those with such drastrically restricted schedules are, in my estimation, a relatively small minority of attendees & like I said previously I am not designing a set of rules to cater to those who don't attend, whatever their reasons are. In running DX I can tell you that it impacts runs the same way whether someone is off fighting Kirin or off at work. While that is a bit unfair, because obviously someone fighting Kirin could theoretically choose to come to DX instead, they are both obligations of a kind many people have, I know people occasionally skip DX because their main LS needs them. I don't begrudge anyone their reasons for not coming, it's a game, people can do what they want, but we're still here trying to run a Dynamis LS regardless.
Changes are coming, I think most people will adapt well to them, and that the rules in place will not unduly discriminate against those with moderately low attendance outside of the period of time it takes them to accumulate points, which is commesurate with their time attended.
If someone wants to attend one run a month for the next 2 years then they can win a Shadow Mantle with an equal lot against someone who attend every run for 2 years, discounting any chances that person may have had to win it earlier.
The truth is people don't attend for a variety of reasons; busy RL schedules, busy in game schedules, disinterest, already having their AF2, etc. I really don't see the need to cater to those who don't attend for most of the latter reasons, if people want AF2 they should put the time into an event to get it, just like any other event in this game. The current system rewards nothing, and I feel that is unfair to those who put more work into it.
If someone is completely incapable of attending any Dynamis for months at a time due to their RL schedule then I would ask why they should expect to win AF2 in the first place? They obviously have a very busy schedule and have to assume their chances are pretty bad currently anyway when they can only attend 1 or 2 runs every few weeks, if that. And still, under the current system they can still build up points to lot items, taking longer if it's Xarcabard AF2 they are set on.
If everyone in the LS played on such a restricted schedule, however, we couldn't even run DX. Those with such drastrically restricted schedules are, in my estimation, a relatively small minority of attendees & like I said previously I am not designing a set of rules to cater to those who don't attend, whatever their reasons are. In running DX I can tell you that it impacts runs the same way whether someone is off fighting Kirin or off at work. While that is a bit unfair, because obviously someone fighting Kirin could theoretically choose to come to DX instead, they are both obligations of a kind many people have, I know people occasionally skip DX because their main LS needs them. I don't begrudge anyone their reasons for not coming, it's a game, people can do what they want, but we're still here trying to run a Dynamis LS regardless.
Changes are coming, I think most people will adapt well to them, and that the rules in place will not unduly discriminate against those with moderately low attendance outside of the period of time it takes them to accumulate points, which is commesurate with their time attended.
I think this is the exact reason Garret wants to implement it. Hard to use that as a selling point about why it's bad, since that's the reason everyone else thinks its good
Yuriku
Sand Angel Artist
Well if someone has all their af, and can't lot their af for a job their currently leveling, It doesn't give them much incentive to continue going, untill they lv up their next job. Which in my opinon is a result of the lv cap rule, It has nothing to do with obtaining AF and running, there is simply no reason for someone in that position to attend.
I do agree it should be weighed the outcome of... "someone who can use the AF right away Vs someone who can't for a few weeks." However, I think you need to be preparred that someone is not going to attend if there is nothing they can lot. And a those people should not be looked down upon.
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Nekio
{Gilfinder}
Aye. As a casual attendee, I still like this idea. I never go to a Dynamis expecting relic, because the chances of me seeing the drop and then outlotting everyone else there is extremely low. On average, you're still going to need to attend just as many runs to obtain your relic. Dynamis shouldn't be a gamble... I'd much rather have "luck" taken out of whether or not I see my AF.
Winning AF on your first run is not fair. Never getting a piece after 100 runs is not fair. This new system will make sure neither of those will happen.
Yuriku said:
I'm sure some will not attend if there is nothing they can lot, but that is also them passing up the chance to earn points to lot it.
I disagree that people who are levelling a job they can't lot AF2 for yet have no reason to attend. They can accumulate points for that job while they are working on it, and then when it is high enough they will have enough points to win all the AF2 for it. Otherwise they are going to be stuck levelling the job up first & then waiting months to earn points to get its AF2.
I had a thought concerning 100 bills, would it be feasible to essentially put them on a similar sliding scale as AF2. Have their base value be 4 points, which might be expensive to some people, then scale it to 2, then 0, if nobody is lotting? Or is that going to have a tendency to eventually have them bought out by those with more points eventually, which would in theory put some big dents in people's point totals.
Some people go to dynamis merely because it's fun for them. Benny's a good example I think... there are others but I'm not putting words in anyone's mouths (I remember Benny saying how fun he has doing dynamis at one point). Personally, I hate dynamis. Mainly the lag makes it unfun for me. That's the sole reason I don't do besieged, lol. Beseiged is like Dynamis lag x100, it's insane to the point of not being fun..
The only way I can do dynamis with very little lag, is to shutdown FFXI, switch the res to the lowest setting, then run in fullscreen (NOT THAT I USE WINDOWER LOLZ).
I don't know what you're asking for. If you don't like dynamis, don't go. If you're asking to let people lot on items they can't equip yet, that's unfair to those who can equip it.