50 Point Tier - Discuss

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Garret

Garret

Galkasaur
FC/Active Member
Basically just what the title indicates.

This is essentially similar to what Fodder had mentioned a month or two ago, although I believe his idea was more along a bidding system.

What do people think of a *massively* higher point tier that could be applied across the board to any piece of AF2, including cities?

I do realize this would essentially only benefit those who have attended a *LONG* time without winning items.

Thoughts & opinions?
 
I'd think you'd lose the chance of bringing new people into DX.

I also think people like myself, who can't come on a regular basis get screwed.

People coming to Dynamis that are either new players or or just new to Dynamis in general would have a bad taste at having to wait so long to gather enough points just to lot.

Now, I could see where you could raise the points required to lot, but at a reasonable amount... that means 2-4 points above their current market.

Dynamis points can function just like an enconomy... you can raise your rates a point or two, or even lower it. However, making a drastic jump kills your enconomy no matter your wealth status.
 
The basis for the tier would really be more to provide an outlet for those who have obviously gone a very long time without winning pieces. 50 points is equivalent to something around 5+ months of attending every single run, I would argue that people in that situation deserve some sort of a break.
 
Garret said:
The basis for the tier would really be more to provide an outlet for those who have obviously gone a very long time without winning pieces. 50 points is equivalent to something around 5+ months of attending every single run, I would argue that people in that situation deserve some sort of a break.
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Have people been complaining about having lots-o-points but the worst lots in the history of Vana'diel?
 
There was some discussion of it from Fodder's previous post, which is what had me thinking about this possibility. I did not previously like the idea of a point-bid system because that would imply that people with more points would always win out.

However, there were those who felt there should be some sort of outlet for those who do have massive amounts of points, of which there are some, and this would offer a potential avenue for that without neccesarily overburdening those newer attendees.

I don't think it is neccesarily a bad thing for those who have attended for incredible lengths of time to have some amount of an easier time winning something.

Like I said before, I don't think it neccesarily puts an undue burden on newer members. As long as it is a point cost high enough over the base cost to truly mean something.
 
Considering that no one in their right mind would spend 50 points on anything short of a good Xarc relic, Shadow item, or some uber-rare Tavnazia piece, I really don't see how new recruits and/or members who don't make many runs would suffer in winning basic relic.

I mean, it's not like anyone is going to be tossing out 50 points for anything from any of the starter cities (except maybe Windy).

The one problem I forsee with this is that people will tend to save their points well beyond what is required to lot, in the hopes of getting into that upper tier and winning without competition. For instance, I have 26 points currently. That's enough to lot Armlets for my THF, as well as a couple other pieces I still need. Obviously THF armlets are one of those AF that are in extremely high demand, and there are many regular attendees who want them and have similar points as me (the same with RDM and BLM hats). Now I have to decide between lotting on the other pieces I want or saving up for the 50 point tier because, in reality, by the time the next pair of Armlets drop, it is highly likely that at least one member will have enough points to lot at the 50-point tier. My point is, there will ALWAYS be someone with enough points to lot on the extremely rare high-demand AF at the 50-points tier, since people WILL save their points, which will definately block out anyone with less-than-regular attendance and actually lead to a more points in the system, IMO.

P.S. I'm kinda with Aang... If we feel there are too many points in our Dynamis "economy", why don't we do what the government does and increase the rates? Maybe bump up the point tiers to 25 > 20 > 15 > 10 > 5 > 2 > 0?
 
I would say that it really hinges on whether it's reasonable for someone to be able to lot it at that 50 point tier, as in is there a point where people deserve a higher lotting priority for the amount of time they must have put in to get there?

Even for current members with that many points, that would take the majority, if not all, of their points, meaning they aren't going to be winning other items for other jobs any time soon.

Does all of that balance out in the end? Hard to say.

Using you as an example Nekio one could argue, well maybe you wouldn't be able to lot Thf Hands if they dropped tomorrow if someone had enough for the 50 points, but maybe within the next 2-3 you would have 50 points, and is that better or worse than if you are lotting against a few more people at the 16 point tier?

All sorts of considerations can end up going into it, I don't know for sure what is best & what isn't. But I think a strength of DX has been its ability to keep going on, and I attribute some of that to our rules growing with the LS, the point system has been in place almost a year now, so I guess I would say it's reasonable to consider possible additions to it given its usage.

Edit: In response to the raising the rates thing that could also be a possibility but I would say that that is more likely to be hard on newer members, since it would affect them lotting city AF2, than it is going to be on members who already have a solid amount of points. A large high end point tier seems more likely to actually suck points out of various members than a slight increase in base rates.
 
I find raising the point tier is a bad idea. I can't find the old topic. It seems like it's been purged or deleted, but it was my understanding that this talk came about the 1st time around due to people having accumulated massive amounts of points and you want to flood them out or extremely lessen them.

I'll single myself out and use me and my current plan of action as an example. Currently there is only 1 piece of AF I presently want, and I'm unsure if I really want that. Said piece is Koga Chainmail, but I'd rather get a Shura Togi for space wise if I decide to lvl MNK or SAM. Currently I am in the process of taking all my low level jobs to 37 (90% are in 24/25 now) so I don't have to worry about subs and then lvl BLU and or PUP to 75, which have no Dynamis AF2 gear currently.

With that being said I go to just about every dynamis every month. I have nothing to lot on really aside from DL stuff & 100's to sell off for some extra gil and with the amount of people lotting them, I don't see myself drastically reducing my points every month. In fact I see myself drastically accumulating a massive amount of points if I continue going to dynamis at the rate I do. I don't think I've spent a point in the past 1.5-2 months honestly. Will this eventually spark up future talks again of should we raise the point tier values? I have two options at this point. I can either one continue to just go to dynamis and accumulate massive points well beyond everyone, or I can just stop coming to dynamis and effectively stop accumulating points.

Also if you raise the point tiers you're going to be either talking more 45 pts? > 30 pts? > 20pts? > anyone? > "I don't have 20 pts but I want it" > 15pts.... in the linkshell which will allow less time to lot and more time for the piece to autodrop.

People with massive amount of points have nothing to lot on like me and just keep going to dynamis or are after AF2 that doesn't drops as often and as much as you would like it to. I'll use this as an example. Gallant Surcoat drops kinda rare. I could probably effectively accumulate massive amount of points at my current rate, level PLD to 75, and snipe lot Surcoat from all the PLD's that have been going and wanting it just because I could attend more frequently. This doesn't give those other PLDs a fair chance at the Surcoat due to having other real life obligations like maybe having to work or take the kids to a movie, ect.

If you you really want to intend to raise the point tier on something think about raising it on 100's. Maybe this will shy people away like me who have nothing to lot on and just lot for that reason and sell it off. Or for those that go pff 2pts I can get that back and still lot Duelist Chapeu in Xarca next week if I win. In my opinion with them being worth more, those upgrading relic will have a better chance of obtaining them, despite costing more points, than someone like me that has nothing better to do than to just sell it off currently. That would also potentially lessen their points to lot AF2 in areas and allow others a slightly better chance at lotting AF2.

Sorry post is kinda long, but I'm bored at work currently and currently have nothing to do but rant about this, because i just don't like it or see a very good point for doing this aside from maybe upping the points on 100's
 
Look at the very botton of this thread... Under "Similar Threads" --- I believe one of those posts is the one you guys are talking about... Scroll all the way down to the bottom of the browser window.
 
I also agree with Alien, on two points in particular:

1. I've always thought the point cost for bills was too low. The only people that usually lot bills are those that don't have any interest in relic, and those are the ones with a lot of points to begin with. What was the reason for making the cost so low to begin with? To encourage people with no AF left to win to keep coming? I don't see how that would change... increasing the point cost means fewer non-regular attendee lotters which means less competition.

2. If you want to do the higher point tier, I really don't think it's fair to leave out tiers in between. Sure, it makes lotting much more complicated, but what difference is there really between someone with 48 points and someone with 50 points? I'm ok with someone at 15 points not getting to lot BLM hat (sorry Zeo :)) but you need at least some additional tiers in between 20 and 50 if you were to implement it.
 
People do make good points, I would like to let some others post back regarding it before I ramble on more.

Raising the point cost of 100's is probably a good idea though. 2 is a rather low value for them when they are often lotted by those who don't want AF2 & simply have points.

What would a more reasonable value for them be?

4? 8?

They are relatively rare in some senses, since anyone can really go after them and only 1-3 drop in any given run.

I'll take suggestions on that.
 
Make the 100's the same cost of an AF2 in the cities 4pts and make them 8pts in glacier/xarca since they are more rare there and the 1st 100 there also goes to sponsor.

In all honesty i think that is fair. If you want the 100's to be a certain point value across the board I wouldn't really go beyond 6 or 8. That's just pushing it in my opinion and wouldn't allow those upgrading relics to accumulate enough points inbetween lots. You can always do the point reduction thing on the 100's like you do with AF2.

Still may want to impose only winning 1x 100's a run until everyone with comment maybe has lotted. It would be pretty unfair of me to lot 3x 100's before someone else could in a single run just because I have more points after each win and can still effectively lot above them.
 
I'd imagine most people who really end up lotting bills wouldn't care if they are 8 points, and the idea behind them is for something to be winning if you aren't going after AF2, 8 points would imply that you weren't going after in multiple cities, since you can't exactly keep spending 8 points very often.

Edit: I would never allow multiple winning of 100's before all those lotting have won them, the exception being sponsors in Northlands as was discussed in a previous topic. I also like the idea of making 100's cost the identical amount of AF2 in whatever respective area they are dropping in.
 
Nekio said:
I can see a lot of people making a stink about a 400% cost increase, though. :)
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Meh I have nothing to lot in Dynamis currently but 100's. This hurts me and I suggested it, but then again I was thinking about others and not myself and personal gain.
 
Good idea - bad idea?

Listen guys - Try not to think of 'yourself' when considering the fate of 40+ people. I see angel already is doing that - but whatever Ill try to do the same for myself with this post lol.

All I can say is this: people i think should work towards their AF2 - and they do in this LS - i think the groundwork for the LS - the backbone so to speak is there - it works nice having point system.

However. ( Here i go with me ) Ive been there since they started point system - 6months or so now and i wont lie - im here to get AF2 from northlands AS WELL AS help everyone else here. (not just me to think about).

So in that respect - how can a person with 40+ points - someone who has quietly helped out for so long and get nothing in return - how can you feel good about that with ANYONE in the LS? not just myself?

There is a common thread of history here - People like garret will tell you they have waited 2 + years for their AF2 piece - and we should all follow suit. Thats fine to say that but - that was then and not now - things change.

I dont think having a 50 point tier will scare people away??! And if it does - so what - what you want the person with 16 points to win AF2 over someone with 50 points!??!? that doesn seem right.... especially if that person with 50+ points had been with LS WAY LONGER - and had played that job WAY longer. Its not RIGHT - plain and simple.

If it scares people away - why would it? what cause they cant win af2 over people that deserve it more? So 'luck' determines who gets what now? instead of who really deserves it more? That SCARES ME AWAY.

I think - and ill take my own advice on this one - try not to think of yourself as much as the people who REALLY have put alot of time into this LS. Its those people we know have earned it and deserve it - and if we were a GREAT LS wed recognize that.

Garret's big hangup is keeping solid numbers going - i respect that - and his rules reflect the concept that giving people a good chance at AF2 = more people will showup. Thats all Gravy. But that does NOTHING for retention. Meaning you could win AF2 in northlands in almost 1-2 months showing up half the time and THEN GUESS WHAT: You could walk away and say goodbye! LIKE MANY HAVE DONE. So dont think having tier 50 scares people away - if ANYTHING - it keeps them around long enough to actually EARN IT.

Casted lots 4 times now on RDM AF2 hat - Last night not one of those people that won that hat were there. JUST FYI.

And YES I WOULD come back after winning AF2 - ANYONE who knows me knows that my word is my bond.

Obvioulsy this isnt just about me - i think that you guys should reward ANYONE that wants AF2 that has PROVEN without question they deserve it. And 50+ points - OMFG - give that person AF2 - THEY DESERVE IT - dont leave it up to LUCK!!! are u kidding me?!?! ugh - make that jump and make that change you guys - make it worth out wild!

All i ask if for a 'light at the end of tunnel' If i have to lot against someone who has 50 points - so be it - i have np with that - they obvioulsy have been here long enough - they deserve it.

But me lotting against someone who joiined the ls 1-2 months ago and just got 16 points and is lotting against me with 45+ points?!?!? and ive been there since u started it!??!?! What are you guys thinking?!?!

Chances are that person is gonna bail before me!??! wouldnt u think!?!?
Anyways - i feel im ranting here - but ive learned to bring it here - instead of on the LS.

I respect you all - i feel DX is the BEST dynamis ls on valefore for us NA's and such. Everyone in my LS i send to you guys - I dont think DX will EVER have retention problems. Especially with LS leaders like myself who set aside time for DX so their members can attend.

Understand that I most likely wouldnt of posted this had i won my AF2 - and so perhaps you could say I shouldnt talk - however in the last 24 hours ive realized im not the only one - and yes people have left with alot of points - thinking they wont get the af2 they want - and it was jsut af2 from northlands either....

I feel if you have points - you should be able to work towards your af2 - and that yes someday you have the right to lot it vrs people who have put in the same amount of effort you have. Now for those that cant make it as often or w/e - you gonna justify your lifestyle to prevent ME from getting AF2 that ive obviously worked hard for?!?! /sigh now its luck + other people's Real life i have to compete with also!?!?

Please do this Garret - and everyone please make this happen - i think its a good thing - i think it REWARDS the work - horses of this LS more so than i would DETER anyone from attending.

Anyways theres my 2 cents - more like 5 cents - but whatever... Thanks for reading + listening -

- Your humble RDM - Spirn
 
Spirn said:
I dont think having a 50 point tier will scare people away??! And if it does - so what - what you want the person with 16 points to win AF2 over someone with 50 points!??!? that doesn seem right.... especially if that person with 50+ points had been with LS WAY LONGER - and had played that job WAY longer. Its not RIGHT - plain and simple.
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I'm just gonna pick this part out cause I mentioned it in my post, but I could potentially lvl PLD in like 2 months to 75 if I really tried hard enough and take that surcoat with my massive points who has had 75PLD for 3+yrs and works every wednesday night and can only come to dynamis on Sunday's.

While you're above point and rationale is fair in one respect. In my above mentioned rationale it isn't fair to the other person that I do that to them. Especially if Surcoat hasn't dropped for months and I just snipe lot it cause I have more points.
 
Correction

God I suck at spelling - and phrasing x.x Sorry was in a rush when posting - Over all theme was to intend - NOT TO think of yourself - Think of the people who have LOTS of points + showup alot. You guys should have no biased towards these people - and there are quite a few of them - they have helped alot and deserve to be recognized. Leaving their fate to 'luck' and other people's REAL LIFE - which they cannot CONTROL EITHER
in many ways can be desribed - but IT SUX - is one phrase that comes to mind.

:abso-not:
 
While i probably no longer go i guess I shouldn't have a say but there are plenty of people who can't go to the 2 runs a week and i feel that would really hurt them point wise to keep up with people who go x2 a week.

The idea of the point system was to avoid the random noob attending first run lotting and not atending after wiinning. Your system has fixed it. Now a few people want higher tiers. What will you propose to change next?

I would agree on upping 100's to a much higher value since majority of people actually profit of these.

Spirn, If you think people with 50+ points will always attend after winning everything they want will still continue to go, i don't know what to tell you. It's very rare people stick it out after obtaining what they want.
 
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