Proposal

[Lylie]

i show no sympathy when some DX members of 2years ish are STILL after those gloves when new members complain they get them or newer members win them and never return with them on.

I somewhat agree with fodder yet somewhat dont. I think the side agreeing is me wanting my damned gloves no matter what it takes. However i'd never see shadow items then lol

I don't see the problem here. You guys made new rules, if someone gets the item(s) he wanted, after spending the points he earned, why would he come back just because he got them "thanks" to DX?

The problem is, you are expecting to get an item, out of a very random and low drop rate, just because you go to Dynamis more often than everybody else. Guess what? It's all about randomness. I have hardly done any Dynamis in the past 6 months, maybe 10ish, but about 2 weeks ago, I finally got my Duelist Chapeau with Nudawn shell.

As much as I wish this were the case. People don't care enough about my dedication and long term commitment to the linkshell to pass. All they want is their AF. Thusly they will not pass just because of me.

Just like you. You said it yourself, you'll get your "damn gloves no matter what". Don't get me wrong, I see no problem with doing something to expect some sort of reward.

Like Doran said, you should be happy to have a part in the organization of the linkshell to see people get their AF2. But you are acting just like the people you are pointing at: all you want if your AF2 (and your Mandau). Some people just want their piece of AF2 and leave. There is no problem with that. These people have no kind of debt to you, nor to DX because they got it with this linkshell. People don't have to care about your "dedication and long term commitment to the linkshell". You're a leader of a Dynamis linkshell, not Endgame one. People come and go in the ONLY purpose to get their AF2. Then, if they want to keep going and/or help because the linkshell and the people are fun, if they show you respect for the work you guys are doing, it's a good thing.

Sorry, think I got kind of upset on this one, lol.

Finally:

With all that said, moving to a bid system would violate two creeds that I live by:
1. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
2. KISS- Keep It Simple and Stupid.

 

[Araius]

So long as there are people to replace those that leave once they get AF, in a way I don't really think that should be a determining factor either. If I went to every Dynamis in the past year and didn't have my Chapeau yet, and then got outlotted by someone who had exactly 16 points and had gotten them all in the past couple months, would I be upset? Sure.

But fair is fair, at some point you have to draw a line and say look, let's not be anal about how much someone has helped and do what we need to do so that we'll get the numbers to have the opportunity in the first place.

That said, the soft tier system I've always thought has been the best of both worlds: Extremely dedicated people are rewarded, but nothing is guaranteed, so other people feel its still worth coming.

The main issue people tend to have with the tiers is the whole KISS thing, unfortunately. Those of us who develop the ideas might love them, and in theory they might work better than anything, but if people can't or don't want to understand the system, you lose a lot of manpower just based on them thinking it's too complicated (and what people don't understand, they tend to think is screwing them over)

 

[Fodder]

Maybe I took the wrong approach here. I suggested a change rather than presenting what I see as the problem which is that everyone has points now and can pretty much lot anything as more points go into the system than out each run. For the system to be effective, as many points as are gained from each run should be going out. For example, if 32 people attend a city run, 32 points go into the system. Unless 8 AF2 drop that go for 4 points each (which rarely happens, many go for 2 or 0) points build up and the whole system is trivialized. At some point there is no longer a benefit to the point system as they no longer provide anyone an advantage.
I realize I don't attend Dx much and am not trying to give Garret a headache, but I see the system as flawed in this fashion and was simply trying to suggest a possible fix.

 

[Garret]

I'm going to agree & disagree with you at the same time Fodder.

It is entirely true that as more people acquire more points then points become trivialized, however, it is also true that anyone with lots of points has spent a considerable amount of time in DX runs.

In essence what I am saying is that in theory if everyone has infinite points that the current point system works almost identically to the old system.

The main purpose of the point system was to discourage random cherry picking and to encourage people to attend different areas to help. I think it accomplishes that. Beyond that eventually for many people they will simply be able to lot whatever they are able to wear, and that's ok in my book if they put the time in to get those points.

So I would argue that it's not neccesarily a problem.

 

[Nekio]

The main purpose of the point system was to discourage random cherry picking and to encourage people to attend different areas to help.

I agree. I always envisioned the major purpose of the point system to be that members that had only attended a few runs for clear, or members that normally attend with other shells, wouldn't be able to use DX to stroll in and lot their Northlands AF over people who had been attending for two years. No matter how many points are floating around, this will always be prevented with the current system.

I never really thought of the point system as a means of determining how much harder one person has worked than another, but rather to determine if a member has worked enough to deserve what they're lotting.

 

[Garret]

I never really thought of the point system as a means of determining how much harder one person has worked than another, but rather to determine if a member has worked enough to deserve what they're lotting.

Exactly.

 

[Aangeliceus]

I'm obviously not at the point to sponsor runs yet... however..

Just to throw in some more dressing to toss the salad with...

How about spending DX points to sponsor, bid for it!



Ok you can laugh now.

 

[Razorcat]

Points are points. Points show the level of commitment a person has towards an LS. Subsequently, using these points shows how committed a person is to obtaining a particular piece of AF2. My suggestion would be to raise the value of AF2 across the board to decrease points total for each individual member if "culling points" is one of the concerns. IF not, status quo.

Even though I only go to the Dynamis Tavnazia... someday my points will lot on something.

OR

Here's a wild idea.
Why not have a tiered level based off the last digit of the random.
0-1 = 10 points
2 = 20 points
3 = 30 points
4 = 40 points
5 = 50 points
6 = 60 points
7 = 70 points
8 = 80 points
9 = 90 points

So an AF piece drops. People put up their bids and if the price is right (ie whatever is randomed) they win a new AF2! Bids of course have to be the closest to the randomed points value without going over.

>.>

OK I'm bored watching the Price is Right.

 

[Varda]

Points are points. Points show the level of commitment a person has towards an LS.

I'm not suddenly a lot less commited to DX because I won a Xarcabard piece and my points dropped by 16. ^_^;;

Subsequently, using these points shows how committed a person is to obtaining a particular piece of AF2.

That's one potential view of points, but I prefer the current "shows you've put in a reasonable amount of effort for the shell" interpretation.

 

[alienmonkey]

Part of this is a suggestion, and sadly part is a rant i guess because it deals with a pet peeve of mine. You could try penalizing points for those who are late or don't show up without notification to help take points out of the system. It might not be a lot of points coming out like you want I guess, but it might help a little bit. I don't know about anyone else, but it kind of annoys me that I'm in the zone on time with the time posted in the /lsmes at 8:00 est, but people show late and delay start time to like 9:00 sometimes 9:30 entrance time after the time posted in the message and I'm just making the assumption people aren't telling sackholders due to reactions of lack of people at start time. Some days it's not as bad as I make it out to sound, but some days it is in my opinion. Sorry if I sound a little bit ignorant, but being on time is kind of a pet peeve for me and I been feeling like I should just add an hour to the posted time and show up then to avoid wasting my time. Even though showing up at start time guarantees me a spot, in reality 95% of the runs are never full runs.

You could say they gain 0 points for the run, but can still use their points to lot stuff. That's probably the best example I could think of that wouldn't hurt people from coming and doesn't add points, but still reducing their total points if they win.

You already deduct points for people who leave early without notice to a sackholder prior to entrance, so I don't see why this would be different and couldn't possibly be added to lower total points if that's what you are looking to do.

 

[Tarnak]

heres the best proposal in my opinion.

DONT SIGN UP IF YOU CANNOT SHOW

We have several posts saying this and yet attendance is seemingly getting worse

 

[Lylie]

Points are points. Points show the level of commitment a person has towards an LS. Subsequently, using these points shows how committed a person is to obtaining a particular piece of AF2.

That is not totally true. One could run with DX only once per week, or so, because he works on either Wed / Sun, but does that mean he is not as loyal as everybody else?

My suggestion would be to raise the value of AF2 across the board to decrease points total for each individual member if "culling points" is one of the concerns. IF not, status quo.

Or it would just make more people change their Dynamis LS.

If you increase the points you need to get your AF2, it would just give more advantage to old members with so many points they don't know what the hell to do with them because they are waiting for their Xarcabard AF2 to drop, and new members would simply not go anymore...

Why not just set a cap on points you can get? Set a cap to people's points at 20~25 points so they have enough to lot on 2 AF2 in a row or 1 AF2 and a DL item.

Edit: Seeing the DX Points List it doesnt look like that many people have that many points anyway, so increasing the point per AF would be pointless.

Between 1 and 10 points: 274 people.
Between 10 and 20 points: 34 people.
Between 20 and 30 points: 21 people.
Over 30 points: 9 people.

So, as you can see, a large majority don't have more than 10 points (even though lots of them have either quit or only came to Dynamis a few times). It doesn't look like the system is overflooded by players with lots of points.

 

[defiant]

Increasing points would make me find another Dynamis LS.

I can't always go to dynamis because of work and making it that much harder to get X points for Y item would be a extreme turn off.

Also concidering that SOAP has no zone where they can earn 2 points like DX already puts people in soap at a point disadvantage.

 

[Yuriku]

Point systems cause herpies

 

[Araius]

The only serious problem I'd think that might come out of the current system is a possible lack of attendance if some of the old reliables stop coming, and it becomes hard to replace them since people don't want to compete with people who have umpteen-billion points. On the other hand though, it really doesn't take too incredibly long to get enough points, about 2 months of dedication seems about right for at least a shot at a 16-point item...much has I would probably hate to say that if I had 80 points saved up.

In an unrelated note, I love run-on sentences.

 

[Garret]

Well there are a variety of people with well over 20 points who seem to just keep coming, so they don't seem discouraged =)

 

[Nekio]

Well there are a variety of people with well over 20 points who seem to just keep coming, so they don't seem discouraged =)

There's a reason that DX is one of the most successful, if not THE most successful Dynamis shell on the server. That's it right there, IMO.

 

[alienmonkey]

heres the best proposal in my opinion.

DONT SIGN UP IF YOU CANNOT SHOW

We have several posts saying this and yet attendance is seemingly getting worse

Not really always the case. I usually sign up for every run at the end of the month for the following month in every dynamis thread to guarantee me a spot regardless. I signed up for an upcoming glacier run that I can't show up at, but I atleast had the courtesy to delete my post from the thread and notify Garret last night.

Some people might be signing up ahead of time in the same fashion that I described how I sign up and then decide that week to go out drinking, but meh not notify anyone cause well it doesn't affect them in any way.

 

[Gergall]

I think that this is a critical topic that should be considered for implementation in the near future.

Even as someone with relatively few points (just 11 right now), I think it would be a great idea to raise the point tiers (50, 40, 30, 20, 15, 10, 5, 2, 0).

Why? Because it creates the assuredness that if you rake up enough points, you WILL eventually get your AF2. How many people have over 16 points but still lot against a big crowd when their xarc AF2 finally drops? These people have nothing to look forward to. There is no break for them waiting at 20 or 30 points where they can enter a more elite lotting tier. I think that there should be something more to strive for.

 

[defiant]

I think that this is a critical topic that should be considered for implementation in the near future.

Even as someone with relatively few points (just 11 right now), I think it would be a great idea to raise the point tiers (50, 40, 30, 20, 15, 10, 5, 2, 0).

Why? Because it creates the assuredness that if you rake up enough points, you WILL eventually get your AF2. How many people have over 16 points but still lot against a big crowd when their xarc AF2 finally drops? These people have nothing to look forward to. There is no break for them waiting at 20 or 30 points where they can enter a more elite lotting tier. I think that there should be something more to strive for.

or maybe have a few more runs in xarc then normal to elimante points from the pool.

increasing points would only discourage people from coming back after they spend them.