Proposal

F

Fodder

.
Ultima Legacy
What do you think of the following:

In addition to the current Dx point system, adding the possibility of bidding additional points for an item.

For example:

Valor Surcoat drops.
PlayerA has 18 points.
PlayerB has 29 points.
PlayerC has 35 points.
Galkastank announces 18 points base price.
PlayerB says "I'll expend 29 points on it!"
PlayerC says "I'll expend 30 points on it!"
No one goes higher so PlayerC wins and expends 30 points.

Make sense? I think it would get points out of the system more quickly and spread things around more.
 
Part of my reason for not intially doing a system like this is that it can severely penalize those with less points, who would otherwise be able to lot.

When originally doing the point costs I tried to assign values to items based on how much time it would take to acquire that amount of points, i.e. Xarcabard AF2 is equivalent to about 2 months of straight attendance, city AF2 is equivalent to 2 weeks of straight attendance. So in my mind someone who had attended that much had earned the right for the corresponding AF2.

That being said, if people would really like a system like this I would not neccesarily be opposed to it, but would remind people to look at the attendance DX has & realize that not everybody makes 100% of runs. Even though there is a small contingent of vets who are there nearly all the time they would be the only ones to really benefit in a system like this and I don't think that is worth potentially alienating/handicapping the majority of attendees who may come to a good number of runs, but not 100%.


However, perhaps a bid system would work better for some of the more rare items; JSE Capes/Belts, AF2+1, Shadow Items. These items are nearly always in high demand on any run they drop in. Letting people bid out on them might make the CoP runs more interesting and let people feel that their point piles were worth something.

So, I don't think it would work well in general implementation, but it might have merit for the CoP zones and/or special drops.
 
I like the idea for a shadow item...people who lot them have already been on a lot of runs and they have tons of points to drop on these items, so it lowers the total points in the pool, but only the ones with a bunch of points.
 
I was in the middle of writing similar stuff, but Garret stated the same points clearly so I won't rehash them. I think it really would hurt the more casual attendees and would be a disincentive for new people.

As for the CoP idea... I really don't know. They do generally have a higher demand, and they come much more rarely than the original pieces (~1 hour of farming per run, assuming Mega Boss victory, compared to 3 hours of farming in a regular zone). It still seems to penalize casual and new attendees though. And for such rare pieces, effectively giving the piece to the person with the highest points in that job doesn't sound good to me at all. We've never even seen a whm belt... how many are going to have to drop before I'm the one with the highest points when it drops? Especially when I have to worry about keeping points for a few other pieces.

I guess I'd need to be sold on the idea. If the problem we're seeing is people with too many points, maybe we can find another way to bring down totals without the disincentives.
 
I'm not sure if my opinion will hold much water since I rarely go. However, if I were going, say I had 37 points and someone else had 38 points and they automatically win the Shadow Mantle/Ring without any competition simply because they had 1 more point than me. I'd be a little disturbed and pissed off in this situation. If it's changed at all, I would think it more fair to simply add more tiers. A 25 point tier, a 50 point tier, a 75 point tier, and a 100 point tier.

It's sort of the same thing as allowing you to bid up certain items, but the key is that it's less granular. If it's perfectly granular (e.g. 1 point tiers), you're basically just saying that whoever has the most points automatically wins the shadow mantle, which is a little bit of a disincentive IMO.
 
Personally I don't want there to be disincentives.

I could see raising the point costs for AF2+1, Belts/Capes, and potentially Shadow Mantle/Ring, but I think the general AF2 costs are pretty indicitive of people's attendance and the amount of effort they have put into the LS.

Like Kalia & Varda said though it ends up being that those with the most points will win items over people who may have almost as many for all intents & purposes.

I originally implemented the point system in large part to prevent straight out cherry picking of high demand items, which I think has worked very well. Beyond that I always thought the relatively equal playing field in DX was one of its strengths.
 
Kalia said:
I'm not sure if my opinion will hold much water since I rarely go. However, if I were going, say I had 37 points and someone else had 38 points and they automatically win the Shadow Mantle/Ring without any competition simply because they had 1 more point than me. I'd be a little disturbed and pissed off in this situation. If it's changed at all, I would think it more fair to simply add more tiers. A 25 point tier, a 50 point tier, a 75 point tier, and a 100 point tier.

It's sort of the same thing as allowing you to bid up certain items, but the key is that it's less granular. If it's perfectly granular (e.g. 1 point tiers), you're basically just saying that whoever has the most points automatically wins the shadow mantle, which is a little bit of a disincentive IMO.
Click to expand...

Yay for other people explaining what I wanted to say w/o me having to say it. I hate being sick. My brain feels like cotton fuzz.
 
Well the issue is how few xarc clears we've done in the past has allowed the shadow items to get so high. Just who knows. I doubt i'll be able to express my opinion on this. It will always somewhat be a "he who has highest points" issue with someone
 
I'm in the "casual attendee" boat. I consider myself a "regular", but certainly don't attend all runs. The result is that I always have enough points to lot what I want, but hover around 12-16 points, which is about the level of commitment I was looking for.

If I weren't going for low-demand AF like THF pants and BST gear, I'd be pretty boned. Of course, any casual member liek myself going for THF hands, RDM hat, etc. would be totally screwed with this kind of system.
 
i show no sympathy when some DX members of 2years ish are STILL after those gloves when new members complain they get them or newer members win them and never return with them on.

I somewhat agree with fodder yet somewhat dont. I think the side agreeing is me wanting my damned gloves no matter what it takes. However i'd never see shadow items then lol :D
 
I believe that if you allowed for a bidding strategy like this, you do give no incentive for NooBs like Doran to participate. People do not want to think that it is going to take 80+ runs to get their "Damned gloves" as Tarnak put it. Putting any tiered bidding system, whether granular, dynamic, classified, or not, is going to impeed getting new members to join in on the event. The important part of FFXI is that you can drop what your doing and focus on pretty much anything at any time. Allowing for people who JUST do Dynamis runs and that's it to outbid people that focus on in a Less dedicated basis is not a fair basis for an MMO community and speaks towards going in an elitist direction.

It sucks, but Tarnak, being a huge part of every run and organizing, as well as motivating the group, in whatever fashion, is it's own reward. Your inherently already stacking the chips in your favor because you are always there and by taking a leadership role, in some small fashion, gives you the benefit of people passing it to you or not rolling against you.

That is a luxury newer members, IE me, do not have.

I speak of Tarnak as a general model for all DX members.

That's Doran's skinny.

Answer: Nay.
 
I have gotten a few friends to come to DX runs in the last few weeks. They were put off by the point system, but liked the 0 tier and decided to come. One of them ended up with AF actually. If the point system became any more restrictive then it is, then I don't see things like that happening. We were worried about attendance recently, and I think this change could negatively affect attendance.

This is coming from someone quickly approaching 50 points too. Not only would bidding affect noobs but it would also seriously hinder some of our hardest workers in the shell. Many people have a lot of jobs available to DX and will change to whatever the shell needs. This also means they have many jobs to lot and have less of a chance to get AF. Something like this would hurt them as well.
 
Doran said:
It sucks, but Tarnak, being a huge part of every run and organizing, as well as motivating the group, in whatever fashion, is it's own reward. Your inherently already stacking the chips in your favor because you are always there and by taking a leadership role, in some small fashion, gives you the benefit of people passing it to you or not rolling against you.
Click to expand...

As much as I wish this were the case. People don't care enough about my dedication and long term commitment to the linkshell to pass. All they want is their AF. Thusly they will not pass just because of me. :)


(PS) i would never ask they passed no matter how much i want them.
 
That is not entirely true. Course, it all depends on the individual.

I had to pass a few pieces to an old Dynamis Shell runner, because he was the main Puller of the group, So I felt justified in giving away the lot.

People make these decisions all the time and don't say anything about it. True, 90% of the enrollment may not pass, but the 1 time they do.

And let's face it, we all want the gear and adventurers are not Mother Theresa candidates, but the point of this event is community working together and team management. That has to foster some stripes for any leader of ANY Dynamis event.

And NO, if you asked anyone to pass on anything, that wouldn't be right either. I was just mentioning a scenario where being a part of DX on a dedicated basis giving fringe benefits.
 
I dont see it happening plain and simple. Just my view is all. I don't expect pity or sympathy and would be pissed if i got something out of either.
 
Just to clarify I don't really plan on implementing a point bidding system, but I may consider raising the point tier on a few of the CoP items since I think they are more competitive than their original point value implied, not decided there by any means though.
 
I agree that any sort of bid system would likely discourage new attendees, and I think the current system is already a good compromise in terms of both new/old members all having a shot at items.

One other problem with a bid system is that it makes lotting a more complicated process, potentially slowing down the run.

That said, I could see something like this being useful for really, really rare stuff like shadow items, some hydra gear, etc. I personally wouldn't want to see it on AF2, belts/capes or -1 items though... and that's speaking as someone who has a somewhat respectable cache of points saved up.
 
While I do not totally support the idea of a bid system, there are real benefits to be had from such a system that have not been mentioned.

It has been mentioned several times that a bid system would inherently benefit those who have the most points make it more difficult for new members to acquire gear. I believe that this would really only be a short term issue. A bid system would allow for people who have earned the large amounts of points to "blow" them more easily. Think of the very real possibility of two or three members with large numbers of points engaged in a "bidding war." The one who wins will not most likely be the person with the most points ( I suppose it would be possible for someone to bid 15-20 points on a piece on city af2, but very unlikely.), but instead to the person that simply wants it more since they will be willing to give more to get the gear. This will cause that person to have a greatly reduced number of points thus making the person less dominant in his next lotting situation. The first month or so would be a little wild, but I would suspect that a great deal of points would be drained from the system which would eventually level the playing field. I would imagine that it would act similar to the "Invisible Hand" of a free market.

To give you an example:
I would really love the brd af2 head from sandy which would normally cost 4 points, regardless. I have a moderate amount of points, 16. I would be willing to give up 12 points for that particular piece because I think it would look really nice on my head. Now say that there was someone else with 14 points that really wants it too and he bids all of his points. Whilst I would really like that hat, I don't like it enough to out bid the other guy and loose my ability to get a preferred lot next run. I know this is a little extreme, but not outside the realm of possibility in the slightest. But I think it shows how quickly it can move points away from people with a large amount of points because I would honestly give up 12 points for that hat.

Another less obvious benefits is that it would kill lot-botting. Can't use a lot-bot if you don't have the points to lot with.

With all that said, moving to a bid system would violate two creeds that I live by:
1. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
2. KISS- Keep It Simple, Stupid.

I think the big hang up would be implementation. I have a few ideas about how you might be able to do it, but I have been long-winded enough as it is and I think the issue has not matured enough to bother discussing implementation.

-Mani
 
I'm not sure if this would be an issue, especially for zones like Xarcabard, but weren't we having trouble getting attendance in some zones? Seems like anything that would possibly dissuade people from coming could only be a detriment.

That said, I've always liked the tier thing Kalia mentioned. I suggested it a long while back when DynamisFalls was around, and though it never went through, I thought we really had it fleshed out pretty nicely in theory.
 
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