Cycle Vote

[Varda]

By being selective about who we invite we should be able to avoid people of this mindset.

What exactly is the right mindset? Obviously there should be some team spirit, but do we expect people to happily spend multiple hours week after week when they're not getting much/any benefit?

This really should be its own topic, but for all the evils of "cherry pickers" and the rules meant to enforce they have to help with other areas, what benefit do they get for the experience? People will be more likely to try to game the system if there are coercive rules in place, and less likely if they can see a benefit in attending more runs.

Right now the economics are completely against people who want AF. The sponsor gets a huge benefit just from the singles (ex. doubling their money for something like 250 singles at 8k each; it used to be even bigger), and there is talk of giving 100s to them too. There is also discussion about setting aside things like wootz ores for a select group of people. While that might be a fair loss in order to gain (a chance of) an AF piece, we're further making people give up 3x as much because of the attendance requirements (need 1 zone out of 6, 50% attendance).

If we really want people to enthusiastically help on run after run, there should be an incentive for them to do so (and not just the threat of being kicked out).

 

[yelsaewnor]

I am not against any of the ideas behind an honor system but I don't think they should need to be stated. The idea behind LS dynamis in my opinion is to create a dynamis environment where everyone wants to come because they can help the shell and their friends get gear. That is certainly what I would like to see happen.

I understand that this is idealistic and that people have waited a long time for their piece and sometime get frustrated. Varda I do agree that if there are no coercive rules in place people are less likely to try tobe manipulative. But, there will always be people who abuse the system (even if it is an honor system) If there is no line between what is acceptable and what is not acceptable then in my opinion nothing can reasonably be done about the people who do abuse the system.

While I agree that people should always follow an honor system for themselves I think that having some system in place would help keep everything running smoothly. Not everyone needs AF from the same place so I think it is fair to be there at least half the time to help others if you would like them to help you.

 

[Nekio]

Not everyone needs AF from the same place so I think it is fair to be there at least half the time to help others if you would like them to help you.

Yes they do. It's called Xarcabard.

Seriously though, I barely attended DX at all, maybe 10% attendance at best, and I was one of the top 10 point leaders. What does that tell you? Attendance does not mean you will see an equal gain for the time you put in helping others. Unless you have multiple jobs at 75 needing AF, or are a sponsor, it's ALWAYS skewed in favor of time put in in Dynamis.

 

[yelsaewnor]

Yes they do. It's called Xarcabard.

Seriously though, I barely attended DX at all, maybe 10% attendance at best, and I was one of the top 10 point leaders. What does that tell you? Attendance does not mean you will see an equal gain for the time you put in helping others. Unless you have multiple jobs at 75 needing AF, or are a sponsor, it's ALWAYS skewed in favor of time put in in Dynamis.

My post may have been unclear. I did not intend to suggest that if you come to half the runs you will get your AF. This is out of any of our control. As to your points in DX, I am assuming you were after THF hands and came to the xarc runs in hopes of getting them. Thus had no other outlet for your points because you didn't attend the other runs as much. Drop rate vs demand on gear like this certainly is an issue.

On the other hand I know that many have been after WHM feet from windy for example for quite a while. The drop rate on this item is also abyssmal and the demand is high.

In recent months at least 2 DX windy run have been cancelled due to low attendance. Just something to think about.. there are others in the same boat as you but if people don't attend they have no chance at all.

No system is perfect, but as Benny was suggesting there may be a better way to do this but as of now there hasn't been a concrete idea presented.

 

[Heie]

Is there anything in this game that is 100% fair and even split by anyone that helps?

The hope for this is we want to help our fellow members get what they want and in turn they will help you get what you want. Of course thats not gonna break down to being 100% fair. Lots of people have more jobs at 75 then others. Giving them more chances to win AF then others. People who are sponsering are getting a relic for a reasonable amount of gil compared to how it would be if that person bought all the currency.

Honor System sounds all well and good for LS members. But what about people who we invite to come? People outside the shell are more likely to exploit the system then people inside the shell. Especially if its an honor system. Are we trying to have a honor system in place and then have points or cycle or something else in place for people we invite? If that is the case I don't think many people would come with us. Then when it comes time to try and get shadow items or attesations (or however the damn thing is spelled) and/or fragments I don't think we will have enough people to do it. Making it harder for people to get what they want out of dynamis.

In Coice's example he had someone who didn't go to 8 runs and was still able to lot. Yel had an example that did the same basic thing with the honor system. The difference is, with the example Coice gave that person would then not be able to lot anything the following month and would have to go to 4 runs at least to be able to lot the month after that. With Yel's they could lot right away no matter what.

I would love for us all to go dynamis and everyone get everything they wanted from the zone in one run. Clearly thats just a dream. Besides AF is there anything that would keep people motivated to keep going to dynamis to help each other out? If you don't help others you can't expect others to help you.

 

[Nekio]

> Yels

I understand what you're saying, it was basically the point I was making. All of this talk about "cherry-picking" is relatively moot, because attending runs regularly =/= a fair time/reward ratio without prioritizing drops. Some people will get unlucky, some will get lucky, and it'll balance out overall. The only way to ensure that people who work hard get rewarded, and those who slack get dimp, is a strict bidding point system. Period.

From what I can tell, there is zero support for that, so it seems the only other way to make people feel better is to limit lotting rights when attendance has been shady in the recent past.

 

[Coice]

Servers are up again, sweets.

You can't use the never attend and never earn points arguments to make the same point.

Not what I meant, DX's point system works, but only at the very start of the system.

What I mean is, after lets say a year of doing DX runs, any new members are at a disadvantage since there are so many points in the system. So it would take you four runs to 'catch up' and once you do catch up, you're STILL going to be lotting against the same number of people, even if there was no point system in place. DX's point system is too simple; due to the rarity of dynamis drops (and luck) points simply don't leave members fast enough.

Also, senior members get the shaft because of the system as well. Having the most points does not make you the winner of the AF (it shouldnt any which way), and there is a good chance you will never obtain a treasured piece of armor because of the system.

You only have to goto 8 clears to be on even lotting ground versus lets say sassafras.

Shouldn't sass (who is at 75 points!) get it over me because of her dedication to the shell?

NO?! THATS FUCKED UP DOOOD!

And why shouldn't I, who has enough points not be able to lot on it?

DOOOD LET ME LOT MAH GEARZ!

But yeah, seriously though, DX's points favors cherry picking, once you hit X amount of points you never have to do any other zone ever again until you get your item, and once you do, you can just leave.

Another thing I don't like about DX's point scheme is that people tend to buy AF at reduced cost just making the points depletion situation worse. Free lotted gear (aka 0pts 1+) should cost you the full cost of the AF or zero you out if you don't have enough.

It is possible to make a points system work even in the long term, but, it...would be...very..difficult.

Yeah long ass post. I favor the honor system, I think it would work best since its just you, me, and these guys here and there. I have been asked before to pass and gladly did, so just ask them to pass if you feel you should have it over them, it works damn near every time. Just need to keep those who would abuse it out. I personally need at least 2 pieces from every f'in zone, not to mention I want to pick up some loldrg pieces as well now :arg:.

The thing about dynamis gear is, most of it isn't good. Getting in a pissing match over it doesn't do much for anyone, even whoever wins it, lol. Cycles means you are under no obligation to pass, period. Wouldn't you rather have someone pass to you with honor than have them lot against you with cycles? I put in my 'time', so no way I am going to pass.

I don't like warriors!
They're too narrow-minded, no sublety. Worse, they fight for hopeless causes..for honor! Honor has killed millions of people but hasn't saved a single one.

You know what I do like though, I like a killer. A real dyed in the wool killer. Cold-blooded. Clean. Methodical. Thorough. A killer, when he picked up the ZF1, would've immediately asked about the little red button on the bottom of the gun.

5 POINTS for whoever names the movie (NO FUCKING USING GOOGLE!)

 

[Modoja]

The 5th Element

 

[Eticket]

5th element

duh

 

[Eticket]

lol damn you modo

 

[Modoja]

booya

 

[Heie]

People honestly think that with invites that the honor system will keep attendance high?

 

[onorok]

But yeah, seriously though, DX's points favors cherry picking, once you hit X amount of points you never have to do any other zone ever again until you get your item, and once you do, you can just leave.

That's me, I'm that guy. I honestly just have the NIN pieces from northlands left, and Shadow drops, but then a bunch of CoP stuff, but CoP runs rarely happened.

To be honest, most of the relic armor I got were just trophy items. I've got enough points in DX left to take a shot at one or two items if they drop in these last weeks, but it's almost like I am over Dynamis. Sure, there is some stuff I think that would be neat to get, I just don't see it happening in DX or Ultima.

What I want to know is what are the prime motivators for a return to LS Dynamis? Is it to help pay off Gunman's Aegis, and push some other people up on relics? What is the status of the people interested in sponsoring? How far along are they on their coins and drops? Are most in it mainly to go after gear drops? Are people going to complain when people like me get bored of Dynamis and don't really want/need anything from it, and go off to do something else during the LS timeslot?

 

[Ehon]

Perhaps off-topic, but I think this might splinter some of the ideas of rules and such:

Just out of curiosity, since we seem to mostly trust our own and are looking at ways to protect ourselves from the "tag alongs" and "cherry pickers". How many invitees are we looking at having? Could the rules vary for Ultima vs. Invitee?

I know there's a thread with recommendations for individuals, but seriously, if we had decent shell participation, how many outsiders would we need for a northlands clear? What could we do to get 100% shell participation and do away with silly rules and just go for the fact that it's a shell event?

I'm thinking in relation to what's happened with Einherjar; we didn't have enough participation, so some have joined SubText... do we have a good count that Ultima will remain the MAJORITY participants here or will we slowly widdle away and it be 4 Ultima and 36 "invitees"?

Random thoughts while wishing the day was over...

 

[Ehon]

Are people going to complain when people like me get bored of Dynamis and don't really want/need anything from it, and go off to do something else during the LS timeslot?

I think most everyone who's said they're interested are simply looking at it as an activity, like Limbus. If you don't have a Dynamis shell, then go with the Ultima runs; if you do, then you go with your existing Dynamis shell.

Again, maybe this links to my last post about how many Ultima participants are we talking about? Enough to hold runs on their own or ALWAYS requiring outside help? If we're always requiring outside help... and the numbers dwindle... ehh, there's dozens of Dynamis shells on Valefor now, is it worth the pain to have another?

 

[Heie]

What could we do to get 100% shell participation and do away with silly rules and just go for the fact that it's a shell event?

If we did get 100% shell participation (anyone who is online comes and if you get on you come even if you are late) would be freaken awesome. If that was the case then there would be no need for rules. There would be no need to make another shell. I am also pretty certine if we had 90% of the people on the active list come to a xarc and we all gave it our all we could clear.

I don't like being pessimistic and don't think I am being it but I don't think it would ever happen. Would be one of the best things ever if it did happen though.

 

[Varda]

I think DX's point system works for DX because it's a public shell. We've debated it before, but it seems that point bidding or such would have removed the incentive for new people to join ("I need how many points before I could ever win this piece?!"). And since we did lose people from time to time for various reasons, we needed new people to carry forward. I'm the 2nd highest point leader after nearly-constant attendance over 3 full years, and I still supported the argument that the system was needed to encourage new people.

Of course, it's a lot different for a private (+ specific invites) shell. I think any of these systems where lotting is based on some fraction of recent attendance will work fine. I just really would prefer there be better incentives to come to areas you don't need AF from. "So you can lot AF on a different run" doesn't really do it. That's why I would prefer to keep 100s/items lottable by non-AF-lotters in a run. The sponsor is already getting a great deal; it's people wanting AF from an area who could use an incentive to attend run after run in other areas.

 

[Eticket]

People honestly think that with invites that the honor system will keep attendance high?

Most of the invitees are people that someone in the shell will be personally accountable for not just random outsiders.

 

[Heie]

I am well aware of that Et. I was honestly wondering if that is what people thought.

 

[Nekio]

OK I'll just go ahead and ask: can anyone give one valid reason not to use a bidding points system? Don't say "too complicated"... consider this to be my volunteer post for managing the points.

1. It will encourage attendance to ALL runs.
2. It will eliminate cherry-picking.
3. It will guarantee that the amount of items you win reflects the amount of time you put in.

I don't consider "because I can't ever attend!" or "because I want to win pieces every run!" to be valid arguments.