Point System - Effective September

I'm not even sure if in practice people would go into negative points. First runs in SOAP are not going to cost people 4 points because if it had been DX they would have 0 points to spend, and thus the AF2 would end up costing 0 points, just like it would have cost if it were DX. The point deduction is based on how the lotting would go in DX, i.e. winning Bst AF2 for your lvl. 40 Bst would cost 0 points in DX, so if you win it in SOAP it will still 'cost' 0 points. In reality I think the point lotting system as applied to reducing people's points based on what they win in SOAP wouldn't even end up going into negatives at all because of the point tier's. But it would have a tendency to drive people's points closer to 0, i.e. if SOAP does Glacier in 1 week & nobody has more than 2 points, then obviously it wouldn't cost them 8 points because NOBODY could spend 8 points, DX included, it also states in the explanation that the point deduction is based off what it would theoretically cost to win in DX, not a flat out -4/8/16.

As far as putting people at a disadvantage, if NO points were deducted from people attending SOAP this is how it ends up looking to people who come to DX.

Soap Member - wins 3 pieces of city AF2, earns 8 points during that time, comes to glacier wins AF2 piece, down to 0 points, up to 4 AF2.
DX Member - During same period accumulates points in DX, doesn't have enough to spend on AF2, loses AF2 in Glacier.

How is that fair to people only attending DX?

Why would people lot a 100 bill just because it drops? If they win it then that means if their AF2 drops later they couldn't win it.

People talk about negative points like they are going to be at something like -20 automatically and like I said above I am pretty sure that it will have a larger tendency to just push people winning lots of AF2 in SOAP down towards 0 than it will to push them into negatives.
 
It's not like it rains AF2 in SOAP, it's just better odds with a smaller group. You aren't likely to get a full set of AF2 in a month or anything.
 
And even when AF2 does drop, there's usually 1-2 people tops lotting it. Usually only 1. And it's not possible to go negative with only one person lotting.
 
Also, courtesy plays a role as well. Like last week in windy, pld feet dropped. I could've been an ass and lotted it for my 71 PLD but I let stel have it with his pathetically low lot rofl.
 
I don't know about people who have one job, but others find several pieces helpful at every dynamis.

Why is DX even associated with SOAP? In my opinion that's just like "Go to SOAP, it's more fun, you have a better chance of getting AF2, and then save your points from this and go be a loot whore in DX," completely discouraging people to stay in SOAP for the sole reason it was born, which was to finish relic weapons. The AF2 systems meshing makes 0 sense...

Also, it practically does rain AF2 in soap, when there is a maximum of 18 members attending at any point in time. Even if only 5 AF2 drop, that's just over 1/4th of the attendees who went who received AF2.

In DX, typically numbers far exceed 30-40. 12-13 AF2 would have to drop in that run to compare to the SOAP runs. Considering AGAIN that DX is heavily focused mostly on northlands and CoP Area Dynamis, this is never going to happen for them. Therefore, much better ration of AF2 drops in SOAP than does in DX.

There's no reason to even have negative points. You can't afford an AF2 with 0 points. Does this mean that if you have -1 points you are not on the same tier as someone with 0 points?... Differentiating people with negative points and people with 0 points is useless. If I decide when SOAP is all over that I ever want to go to a DX run, it makes sense to start at 0.

People are not at a disadvantage in DX to those in SOAP. SOAP is an entirely different group, and is 99% of the time made up of the same member base week after week. If people in DX really give a care about people in SOAP racking up points, than either simply don't count SOAP towards DX points, or put a cap on points. Putting a 20 or 30 cap on points is not going to exactly hold anyone back. You could even put a cap of Shadow items + the cost of a Xarcabard AF2 as the point cap to be fair to people who are hording points for a shadow mantle who still want to be eligible for AF2.

And by the way Kalia, if I ever run uncontested for Paladin AF2 hands, I'll let you know.

I think if you really want to see some sort of equality, than don't let people in DX lot 100's. I think that's a pretty visible advantage of DX with your system. In your example, that's all luck. It could just have easily panned out the other way, where the person got what they worked for. Who's to say that the DX participant deserved that piece any more than the person in SOAP who got it. They both evidently went to the same number of Dynami, as shown in their point total. Put aside the fact that they received AF2 in SOAP. This is insignificant because that is not the purpose of SOAP.

SOAP, once again, was established in order to complete relic weapons. Taking away points for a simple added bonus of going to SOAP in order to help someone other than yourself (instead of going to DX just to rack up points, and lot AF2, for those who dispise dynamis [Or even just going because you like dynamis/are bored/want to help others]) merits the better odds of winning AF2 in SOAP, and not being penalized by another linkshell that is really in NO WAY related to SOAP.
 
Stelaereous said:
SOAP, once again, was established in order to complete relic weapons. ..... winning AF2 in SOAP, and not being penalized by another linkshell that is really in NO WAY related to SOAP.
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You are against something which is being affected when that wasnt the purpose you stated. If it was created to get relic weapons completed faster, then the rest is just an added bonus. No one is forced to lot. you could just as easily not lot it to not loe points and the rest all pass the item and you lose no points. No matter how strong rules are their can always be loopholes. Why should someone finish most of the af they want and start at 0 when DX members put just as much effort into dynamising to only get 1-2? This is where they have been arguing equality as a whole.
 
The point is that people don't go to SOAP to get their AF. That is the entire point. They aren't finishing their AF sets any faster. They're not going to be decked out in beaudicine, xarcabard, and CoP pieces, because SOAP focuses on zones that drop a substantial amount of currency, such as Bastok, and zones that are farily easy to clear, like Jeuno. There's no real reason to go to zones such as Beaudicine or Xarcabard save for keeping people motivated by a change of scenery.
 
People don't go to SOAP only to help finish relic weapons, or SOAP wouldn't be scheduling the occasional Glacier or Xarc run, neither of which is currency efficient or just for a change of scenery.

Farming currency is one of the major reasons but it's not the sole reason why people attend.

I already explained above that negative points aren't even that likely to come up often, if at all, based on how the point costs end up working out, if you read through that at all or how they are actually calculated.

As far as SOAP & DX being different LS, they are, but they're both run through Ultima. And Ultima members attend both. I stated at the very beginning I was not going to design a system which screwed over members who enjoy going to SOAP, which is helping the LS.

If they received no points towards DX for SOAP then that is effectively requiring them to attend DX over SOAP because otherwise they would never have a reason to come to DX on the runs where they may want something.

What you're saying effectively means I should completely cut off SOAP attendees from having a reason to attend DX, which is unfair to them.

Nobody in SOAP is ever even required to attend DX, they can let their points rot for all it matters and their point totals have absolutely 0 bearing on what they can win in SOAP. I really don't understand why that is so hard to fathom, especially when there are multiple people who go to both LS on different occasions who would otherwise be almost forced in to having to decide between one or the other as opposed to having both options open to them.

I simply can not understand the reason why you want to be so vehement in saying the 2 LS bear no relation at all. Both are run through Ultima, DX may not have been responsible for the bulk of the currency for the relic gun but those attending it helped by contributing to both the attestation for it as well as fighting the animated weapon and 50% of its runs are sponsored through Ultima. Just because it is a more open group than SOAP does not mean they are entirely seperate groups completely cut off from one another.
 
Ok, well, I had a gigantic post reitterating everything I said, but the easiest thing to do, is just to completely avoid your system altogether, while racking up DX points in the meantime.

People in SOAP just simply won't lot anything until it's worth 0. Therefore accumulating points at no penalty to their DX standing.

Voila.
 
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People attending SOAP don't have to pay any attention to the costs of it when they lot, they don't have a bidding war for points during the run, they are deducted later.
 
Thanks for such support for a set of rules many people actually are looking forward to.
 
I have no support for a system that moves you backwards elsewhere for helping other players progress in the game.
 
Explain to me how it is moving backwards by winning AF2 & being able to accumulate enough points to move forwards on another front at the same time and I'll agree with you.
 
The goal for the DX point system is to make the lotting system more fair. It will give people who attend more runs a better chance of winning AF pieces than people who attend fewer runs. However there are a number of Soap people who come for DX runs in non-Soap areas, and because they're also Ultima people, another goal came into being: Make sure Soap people are at an even footing with regular DX attendees for AF. This is the whole reason the points system is shared between the two. If Soap wasn't included, they'd be at a big disadvantage on the DX runs they did come to.

I'm not a part of Ultima or Soap; I'm primarily concerned with the DX side of things. And really, the only way the shared point system is going to work is if AF that drops in Soap is accounted for in the points.

After 8 runs, a constant attender of each shell would have 8 points. Say they each won a city AF along the way, and that they're both going to the next run with DX in Beaucedine. The DX attender would have 4 points and be unable to lot against others who still have 8 points. The Soap attender got an AF piece too; the only way for them to be on an even footing is for their points to be reduced the same way. The Soap attendee shouldn't be able to lot AF while the DX attendee is unable to; they both went to the same number of dynamis runs and both got the same number of AF.

I think this is the guiding rule, and to make it work you end up needing the possibility of negative points for Soap. A negative total means you've won a bunch of AF. That's a good thing! The DX attendees couldn't have won those; we can't spend points we don't have. Soap people can. It'll be a question of whether the piece is worth the points they'll have to earn later.

One last example. If Soap people could win AF and stay at zero, you could get the following situation:

DX attendee attends 4 runs, goes to a city run, and wins a piece of AF. They have 1 AF and 0 points. A Soap attendee attends 4 Soap runs and wins 4 AF pieces. They also have 0 points now, but 4 total AF pieces. The two people are on exactly the same footing for points; they'll both need 8 points to be able to lot a Beaucedine piece for instance. However, the Soap person has 3 more AF pieces after putting in the same effort. How is that fair?

The way the rules have been written seems like a good way to balance out the interests of the DX and the Soap people. Maybe it will still have failings and will need to be addressed later, but it's a good way to start.
 
Stelaereous said:
People in SOAP just simply won't lot anything until it's worth 0. Therefore accumulating points at no penalty to their DX standing.
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My understanding of the rules does not allow this.

If the person winning the AF in a Soap run has that job at 50 or something, sure that would be 0 points as usual. But if they have that job at 70+, it would cost points. The Soap leaders can't just wink and say "oh yeah, no one was willing to lot so the point cost dropped to 0, and then so-and-so decided to lot" for an item that person would be interested in. You'd get into cases like the ones I listed in the above post.

Soap AF needs to cost points. Soap people get points so they can compete evenly with DX people in the Northlands, etc. Soap people need to spend points for their AF so DX people can compete evenly with them in the Northlands too.
 
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