Point System - Effective September
- Thread starter Garret
- Start date
The first run in September wouldn't put SOAP members into negatives, because nobody would have that many points to spend.
The methodology behind how many points are deducted would be thinking, "If the SOAP AF2 had dropped in DX how many points should it have cost?" Since the first DX run all AF2 would cost 0 so would SOAP AF2, in fact all AF2 would cost 0 for the first 2 runs, after that some pieces will end up costing 2 while others may end up still being 0, only on the 4th consecutive run would there be people with 4 points to spend. Make some sense? It will likely be a little confusing at times but I don't think it will be that difficult to keep track of.
The methodology behind how many points are deducted would be thinking, "If the SOAP AF2 had dropped in DX how many points should it have cost?" Since the first DX run all AF2 would cost 0 so would SOAP AF2, in fact all AF2 would cost 0 for the first 2 runs, after that some pieces will end up costing 2 while others may end up still being 0, only on the 4th consecutive run would there be people with 4 points to spend. Make some sense? It will likely be a little confusing at times but I don't think it will be that difficult to keep track of.
Nekio
{Gilfinder}
Varda said:
This really sums it up. As an extreme example:
A strictly DX member attends 8 runs with DX, and a SOAP member attends 7 runs with DX and 1 run with SOAP, both with two jobs at 75 needing AF2. The DX member recieves no AF, despite seeing two drop, because they were saving points for Glacier AF2. The SOAP member acquires the same two pieces of AF2 by extreme lucky drops/lots in the single SOAP run. Do you really think it's fair for that SOAP member to win Glacier AF2 by outlotting the DX member, who put in the same amount of effort, but was forced to give up the same AF for a chance at it? The whole reason the points system was introduced was to make sure that the ratio of runs attended to AF2 acquired was even between all members. By not deducting points, or not allowing negatives, or putting caps on points, you destroy that balance. If that were the case, a SOAP member could attend ONLY Northlands with DX, and always have points to lot, while DX members who have been saving for months could get outlotted.
It wouldn't be a problem at all if SOAP runs didn't count for DX points. However, by separating the two, you need to separate attendance, to where only DX members attend DX and only SOAP members attend SOAP, due to limited ability to attend Dynamis. That just isn't possible, since both are run by Ultima.
You can stop arguing, I already said I'm not going to either anymore.
I don't understand why not to go to either. If you simply hate the DX system then don't attend, nobody is forcing you to attend or to like the system. But by your own comment you said that going to SOAP is to help with currency farming, with AF2 as an added bonus. Nothing in the rules prevents people who hate DX but love SOAP from simply attending SOAP and getting their AF2 there while helping the LS. People who want to do that can simply ignore that they may, or may not, have DX points to spend and pretend it doesn't exist at all.
You're missing the point, and I was done with this several posts ago.
Yuriku
Sand Angel Artist
To be honest I find myself leaning away from attending also. I just liked doing dynamis to get away from a bunch of complications, now would need to worry about points and all sorts of other junk, so it's just not worth it for me anymore.
I don't think any Single dynamis run should have baring on any other, And I enjoy when a peice of AF drops and my heart races before I Lot. I liked that is was just a simple thing which could get me away from all everyday normal LS rules and events, and hangout with people from other shells, and just do something which didn't require much thought and was pretty always a fun time.
All these rules do is make something which was simple into big complicated ordeal. I like having the oppertunity to win an AF or 100 everytime I attend I'm always on the edge of my seat while at dynamis, I don't like having to attend 4-20 dynamis runs before I can consider walking out with something.
Although I'm not finally decided, I'm prolly leaning toward not attending on a regualr basis. So I do want to thank everyone who placed the time into organizing and provided fun runs. And I hope they my contributions over the last few years where benificial to the shell, and wish you guys many more good runs
I don't think any Single dynamis run should have baring on any other, And I enjoy when a peice of AF drops and my heart races before I Lot. I liked that is was just a simple thing which could get me away from all everyday normal LS rules and events, and hangout with people from other shells, and just do something which didn't require much thought and was pretty always a fun time.
All these rules do is make something which was simple into big complicated ordeal. I like having the oppertunity to win an AF or 100 everytime I attend I'm always on the edge of my seat while at dynamis, I don't like having to attend 4-20 dynamis runs before I can consider walking out with something.
Although I'm not finally decided, I'm prolly leaning toward not attending on a regualr basis. So I do want to thank everyone who placed the time into organizing and provided fun runs. And I hope they my contributions over the last few years where benificial to the shell, and wish you guys many more good runs
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Araius
Fatty Pirate
Question:
I'm happy to see these changes, truth me told. With DF's implosion due to lack of interest, DX is once again my home Dynamis LS, and I'd love to come with SOAP as well. I like how the 2 are tied together...I had concerns at first about going into negative numbers on the first couple runs due to not having many points, but it's already been explained that this will be a non-issue.
What I do have a question about is if points will be capped at any point. It's very likely that someone could accumulate..say..100 points in the span of 8 months or so..granted that is a ways off, but still, you could have 50 points pretty easily in a few months.
I don't have any issue with massive accumulation of points, with the exception that people with tons of points I think should be rewarded for being so dedicated and getting nothing to show for it. Say for example, 6 months from now, I have 60 points, and someone else has 4. Is there a possibility that point costs might change to compensate for the people with tons of points who've gotten nothing? I can understand if the answer is no, or even you don't know, I'm just wondering.
See you in September either way
I'm happy to see these changes, truth me told. With DF's implosion due to lack of interest, DX is once again my home Dynamis LS, and I'd love to come with SOAP as well. I like how the 2 are tied together...I had concerns at first about going into negative numbers on the first couple runs due to not having many points, but it's already been explained that this will be a non-issue.
What I do have a question about is if points will be capped at any point. It's very likely that someone could accumulate..say..100 points in the span of 8 months or so..granted that is a ways off, but still, you could have 50 points pretty easily in a few months.
I don't have any issue with massive accumulation of points, with the exception that people with tons of points I think should be rewarded for being so dedicated and getting nothing to show for it. Say for example, 6 months from now, I have 60 points, and someone else has 4. Is there a possibility that point costs might change to compensate for the people with tons of points who've gotten nothing? I can understand if the answer is no, or even you don't know, I'm just wondering.
See you in September either way
I wasn't planning to implement a cap on points. In theory if EVERYONE attending a run had massive point totals then the system basically ends up working like the old system anyway, and over time it may just go down that road on its own, which isn't neccesarily bad, and even then it would at least require newer members to attend some runs before they could begin winning items.
I'm sure that over time there will be large point totals but I'm not sure it will end up being a large issue. They can still only win 1 AF2 per run, and still need to have a job levelled to lot it, if they've attended that much then being able to keep trying for other Xarcabard pieces, or Shadow items, shouldn't be bad or anything. Both shadow items + 1 piece of Xarc AF2 cost, at most, 56 points. That's a ton of points, and they have a way of just sucking down point totals.
In practice I think many pieces will go for less than their full value without needing to resort to actual bidding. Maybe a lot of Rdm don't think their AF2 feet are that good & don't want to spend 4 points on them, but for 2 points it seems like a decent deal, or even risk lotting against 60+ & go down to 0 points. There's nothing wrong with people using that kind of logic. It lets people who really want the AF2, i.e. spend full points, to have those first chances, and it lets others decide how much it's actually worth to them if they are saving for something bigger, like Rdm Hat or a Mantle, etc, etc.
I'm sure it will be rocky for a bit, but the point reducing lets it act a lot like our current system anyway so I think it's a decent release valve.
I'm sure that over time there will be large point totals but I'm not sure it will end up being a large issue. They can still only win 1 AF2 per run, and still need to have a job levelled to lot it, if they've attended that much then being able to keep trying for other Xarcabard pieces, or Shadow items, shouldn't be bad or anything. Both shadow items + 1 piece of Xarc AF2 cost, at most, 56 points. That's a ton of points, and they have a way of just sucking down point totals.
In practice I think many pieces will go for less than their full value without needing to resort to actual bidding. Maybe a lot of Rdm don't think their AF2 feet are that good & don't want to spend 4 points on them, but for 2 points it seems like a decent deal, or even risk lotting against 60+ & go down to 0 points. There's nothing wrong with people using that kind of logic. It lets people who really want the AF2, i.e. spend full points, to have those first chances, and it lets others decide how much it's actually worth to them if they are saving for something bigger, like Rdm Hat or a Mantle, etc, etc.
I'm sure it will be rocky for a bit, but the point reducing lets it act a lot like our current system anyway so I think it's a decent release valve.
Nekio
{Gilfinder}
I'm beginning to have another concern, which was sparked by some of Stel's issues with the system.
As is, attendees can choose not to lot on a item for the full amount, in the hopes that the cost may drop, theoretically dropping it down to a free open lot. In DX, I see no problem with this, since if there is anyone with a serious interest in the piece, which there almost always will be, they will be more than happy to pay the full price if it means less lotting competition.
The problem I forsee is.... what will stop SOAP members from just "agreeing" that no one wants to lot any AF2, then let people lot for free on every item? SOAP is a much smaller group comprised of LS members that are not facing the kind of competition in DX. As was previously discussed, giving members points for attending SOAP runs but not deducting them when they win SOAP AF would cause a huge disadvantage to DX members. They could theoretically attend only SOAP runs, accumulating a lot of points while winning tons of free AF, then pop in for a single Northlands run every few months and win relic gear or even Shadow gear while having contributed nothing to the progression of DX.
I support the new system and I'm not trying to be critical, and I know many Ultima members to be some of the most trustworthy and honest people on the server. I'm just trying to bring up loopholes that might cause problems in the future.
As is, attendees can choose not to lot on a item for the full amount, in the hopes that the cost may drop, theoretically dropping it down to a free open lot. In DX, I see no problem with this, since if there is anyone with a serious interest in the piece, which there almost always will be, they will be more than happy to pay the full price if it means less lotting competition.
The problem I forsee is.... what will stop SOAP members from just "agreeing" that no one wants to lot any AF2, then let people lot for free on every item? SOAP is a much smaller group comprised of LS members that are not facing the kind of competition in DX. As was previously discussed, giving members points for attending SOAP runs but not deducting them when they win SOAP AF would cause a huge disadvantage to DX members. They could theoretically attend only SOAP runs, accumulating a lot of points while winning tons of free AF, then pop in for a single Northlands run every few months and win relic gear or even Shadow gear while having contributed nothing to the progression of DX.
I support the new system and I'm not trying to be critical, and I know many Ultima members to be some of the most trustworthy and honest people on the server. I'm just trying to bring up loopholes that might cause problems in the future.
Don't forget that most people going to soap have all their city AFs anyway. It's not like we're sitting around like vultures looking for a free route to acquire all our city AF and then hit DX up for northlands (which, btw, Soap is going to start venturing into Dynamis-Xarcabard on its own this month), because most of us have all our city AF anyway. If someone wants a particular piece of AF2, but not enough to "spend" 4 DynamisX points on it, chances are that even without a point system they would have waited for it to go to free lot anyway.
Nekio
{Gilfinder}
I'm appeased. ^^;
P.S. I hope I didn't offend anyone by pointing out the potential loophole. I wasn't trying to imply anyone would be trying to unfairly boost their point totals. As I said before, I respect Ultima as one of the most honest HNMLSs in Valefor.
P.P.S. Kalia... Love Torque... /drool.
P.S. I hope I didn't offend anyone by pointing out the potential loophole. I wasn't trying to imply anyone would be trying to unfairly boost their point totals. As I said before, I respect Ultima as one of the most honest HNMLSs in Valefor.
P.P.S. Kalia... Love Torque... /drool.
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It was more or less already answered by Kalia, but I plan to do my best to make sure the point deductions are fair & that loopholes like that aren't used. Some point deductions may likely be a bit of a gray area, only because in deducting what it would have cost in DX there are plenty of cases where people wouldn't pay full point values, i.e. Drk AF2 head in Xarc isn't worth 16 points, especially considering it gets free lotted often, however, if someone is Drk 75 & doesn't have it, it's certainly worth more than 0. There's likely to be a bit of guess work involved on some of these but the general point is not wanting to see Ultima members, or others who are invited, attending SOAP & being really screwed in terms of being able to lot AF2 in Northlands. This may result in them having a bit of an edge for city AF2 but it's not a very large group of people and the real bottom line is not wanting them unfairly disadvantaged in DX if they do come for some runs.
I don't plan to see the system abused by any means but I also don't plan to harshly charge SOAP attendees full value for AF2 that they would have 0 competiton for in DX. For instance, when Bst is typically given to lvl 30 Bst in DX it shouldn't have a huge point cost associated with it, whereas other items are more competitive. A lot of give & take to it.
I don't plan to see the system abused by any means but I also don't plan to harshly charge SOAP attendees full value for AF2 that they would have 0 competiton for in DX. For instance, when Bst is typically given to lvl 30 Bst in DX it shouldn't have a huge point cost associated with it, whereas other items are more competitive. A lot of give & take to it.
Magos
Shantotto Fanboy
Im pretty happy w/ the way the point system is set up but I do have one concern I wish to have examined. The purpose of the point system is to encourage attendance. As it stands If no one has the points to lot an item, it goes down in tiers (16>8>4>2>0). What if, for example, PLD body drops in Xarc and you have 3 PLDs wanting to lot it. PLD A has 15 points, PLD B 10, PLD C 8. Is it really fair to PLD A who has almost double the points (and thus attendance) as PLD C yet all 3 get to lot? Im just concerned because the gap is so big between teirs that it almost seems like it would make more sense to let the PLD w/ the most points lot it instead of allowing all 3 PLDs to lot.
In your senario - 3 pld would lot it at 8 pts.