Thoughts on attendance.
- Thread starter yelsaewnor
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Exactly... wasn't just saying people coming to help to help. This whole thread is based on lotting so was going for that idea. BLM/RDM hat, PLD body, NIN hands, BLM/RDM body etc.
If someone is coming to help on a xarcabard run, and have been helping when they can, I would want to give them the chance to lot. If a change happens, the incentive to help isn't going to be as strong, alla better chance at attendance being lowered. Other people are making excellent points as to why a change is not needed. Give it time and I'm sure more points will be made.
And I agree with what Lexa said. This whole thread is full of cons. And the people who even voted for a points system, were coming from a "dont want change but if a change happens, make it a points system".
If someone is coming to help on a xarcabard run, and have been helping when they can, I would want to give them the chance to lot. If a change happens, the incentive to help isn't going to be as strong, alla better chance at attendance being lowered. Other people are making excellent points as to why a change is not needed. Give it time and I'm sure more points will be made.
And I agree with what Lexa said. This whole thread is full of cons. And the people who even voted for a points system, were coming from a "dont want change but if a change happens, make it a points system".
Nekio
{Gilfinder}
I agree with Lexa's summary... either leave it alone for now, or put in an actual points system. Literally, the only negative thing about a point system is that it discourages new members from joining, which is not an issue in our case.
Point systems guarantee that everyone will get their drop eventually, just like the current system. The only difference is that it guarantees that those who put in more effort get theirs first, which is the way it should be.
Point systems guarantee that everyone will get their drop eventually, just like the current system. The only difference is that it guarantees that those who put in more effort get theirs first, which is the way it should be.
She was really only repeating what few people said. Everyone wants things to change, but a few said that if a change were to happen, then make it a points system. Imo, points system in a closed environment will not be good. It's why UltimaLS doesn't use one. They really shine in an open LS such as DX. Seeing that this is based off of UltimaLS with some invitees, I am casting my vote for no points system and just keep things the same.
Simply because I would like to put together the points you guys are making going to add on to this. From what I'm hearing the main counter-points being made are
- There are no major flaws in the system as it is
- There is disagreement about which attendance system would work best if one were to be implemented.
Are there any points that do not fit in to these catergories which anyone would like to add?
I would like create a pro/con post to go along with a vote.
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never gonna run around and desert you
So, there is going to be a vote? I guess there must be 10+ people who are not speaking up and voicing their opinion. There is not 1 person in this thread that said we should change, except for you 2 and Nekio. Don't even see the need for a vote when the majority of people who actually care enough to post about this are saying to not change a thing and see how things work out over a few months.
you have salvaged this thread sir, all of your invitees are forgiven.
As I said I am voicing the opinion of people who have sent me frustrated tells. Not everyone is partial to voicing their opinion in the open when it is in the minority but that doesn't mean it should not be put up for vote. Heie and I are proud that this is not a strict dynamis shell. We do what we can to let everyone be heard and let everyone's thoughts count equally when deciding on changes. To decide not to let a change (which will affect all) go up for vote is the worst decision which could be made for the shell in my opinion.
Nekio
{Gilfinder}
I disagree. We didn't have a points system in DX... we had a minimum attendance requirement that we called a "point system." The reason a point system would never work in DX was because it was an open group... members could accumulate large numbers of points and basically completely shut out new members, killing recruitment. Point systems can ONLY work in a closed group, where it is guaranteed that everyone, no matter how low their attendance, will win their gear eventually.Pitlith said:
And I don't think anything needs to be changed right now, I'm with everyone else in the "wait and see" pile.
Heh, as I said, there must have been 10+ people who havent posted here and feel troubled. Because if it was only a couple people you are talking about, making votes everytime a couple have problems will get a bit tedious on the whole shell. I understand everyone's voice matters, but if it is a very small percentage compared to 90%+, will there always be a vote everytime something happens?
Edit: And now you confused me Nekio lol. A points system is exactly what DX was, in the simple fact that you attend a run, you gain a point (or 2), then use said points on whatever items you wish to if you have enough. If it works so nicely in closed shells, I would imagine we would have had better feedback when we talked about it a long time ago in Ultima. But instead, the majority wished to keep it the same that was based off of level of effort and time on the LS
Edit: And now you confused me Nekio lol. A points system is exactly what DX was, in the simple fact that you attend a run, you gain a point (or 2), then use said points on whatever items you wish to if you have enough. If it works so nicely in closed shells, I would imagine we would have had better feedback when we talked about it a long time ago in Ultima. But instead, the majority wished to keep it the same that was based off of level of effort and time on the LS
Nekio
{Gilfinder}
The system in DX was simply to make sure that new people had to attend a certain number of runs before they could start lotting valuable Dynamis gear. It was not a true point system, as evidenced by my 60+ points at the time it disbanded. I was losing lots to people with half my attendance who had won twice as much gear. If DX had allowed you to spend as many points as you wanted, or had tiers going up as high as the point-leader could spend, that would have been a true point system.Pitlith said:
However, we couldn't do that in DX for two reasons: 1. It woulda been tough convincing a new THF to join the shell staring at my 60+ points, and 2. The rate of Northlands drops was so low you could go half a year without seeing a specific piece drop once. Neither of those limitations apply anymore.
I can't speak for the prior discussion within Ultima, since I wasn't around. I can say that just because something is fair, that doesn't mean that people will support it (cue Capitalism vs Socialism argument).
I understand your point. But wouldnt that likely be the same point system we would think about using if we decided to implement one? I just had DX's system in mind once the point system idea was brought up in this thread. I can see why DX had that system, but dont see why Amitlu would, but I guess we will be seeing a vote soon regarding this. Now we just have to see the guidelines to the poll and see how things work from there.
I know its a long thread and reading all of it could get tedious but I'm not sure why people seem to have the opinion that Heie and I are decided on this and that any changes would be made right away if at all. We're not that bad really. :icecream:
The vote is accompanied by an open forum so that people can decide their position. Simply because it has not affected someone yet doesn't mean they will not care that it has happened to others. Someone like myself who has not been outlotted on a piece that I have really wanted under the current rules is given the oppertunity to think about it. Someone who has been outlotted and upset is given the oppertunity to see the position of people who come less frequently. The point is we are able to get these issues out in the open and communicate about them for the better of the shell. To bypass the vote would be a disservice to the entire system.
lol you've got me there. My mind is made up on not having made up my mind.
Nekio
{Gilfinder}
Well, since the only purpose of DX's system was to prevent new people cherry-picking, there'd be no reason to use that system in Amlitu, as you said. Yels has been referring to people with near-perfect attendance griping about getting outlotted by people with minimal attendance, which led me to believe we were considering a true point-bidding/tier system. /shrug We're probably both misinformed lol.Pitlith said:
What we are considering is:
If the vote shows that people see no problem with the way things are then there's no need to discuss which system to use.
If the vote shows that people do see a problem with the way things are then we will determine which system is the most fair for the group that we have.
If the vote shows that people see no problem with the way things are then there's no need to discuss which system to use.
If the vote shows that people do see a problem with the way things are then we will determine which system is the most fair for the group that we have.
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