TP gain - WS Internal and External

[Archain]

Here's a post I put up on another board, I'd like someone to shoot holes in this if possible...I'm still learning exactly how this works.

The extra hit Dual Wield adds is actually not external. It's added to the WS damage itself. That's why SATAVB (for example) alwayds returns 10% TP.

I don't believe this statement is totally correct. A WS like VB will get a boost in damage and a +5% TP return (like all physical WS), but non-physicals will not have the offhand weapon effect the WS in any way except for returning +5TP.

Linked Relationship
I still believe the offhand strike is external to the weaponskill itself (but linked with it) and follows external WS TP building rules. I do still believe that the actual follow-on strike itself is linked with the WS due to the fact that they occur in the same combat cycle. The screenshot above with the opponent's offhand striking through Utsusemi despite shadows remaining was my way of showing the linked relationship (the offhand did a follow-on with SA). This is the case on regular SA, but WS will not actually show the follow-on strike, but still record TP according to external WS TP building rules. This same screenshot also shows a WS (DE) without a listed offhand strike. If you perform only SA with a Kraken in the offhand, every hit of that Kraken will penetrate Utsusemi even if Utusemi shadows remain up on the target.

After WS TP Calculations
Dual wielding knives, for instance, has the following unaltered TP gain on a Dancing Edge (without triple or misses).

THF/NIN
Mainhand 5+1+1+1+1 + Offhand 5 = 14% TP gain total.

THF/WAR
Mainhand 5+1+1+1+1 = 9% TP gain total.

Dancing Edge damage remains the same, so the offhand strike is not added into the WS damage total, but is instead counted as an additional seperate offhand strike for TP calc purposes. These are counted together in the same attack round and constitute one attack cycle.

Important! Offhand strike not listed, but TP still gained
Follow-on attacks are not listed seperately, but TP gain is still calculated with the offhand strike. I can show multiple WS chatlogs that indicate this is the case, TP rules still apply and can be verified easily through screenshots and video (as well as a TP check after a WS by yourself).

Check each of these THF/NIN screenshots and you'll see no mention of the offhand strike in the logs, but you will see the next attack cycle in a paired group of two.

Ladon
Beet Leafhopper
Air Pot

You can verify this by looking at your TP in the video; the Raging Fists demo is particularly telling. You engage and immediately do Boost -> WS, your TP goes up, then near the end of the WS, the log records two extra hits and your TP goes up again. You don't do anything else for the rest of that segment.

THF WS Demonstration

This is exactly what I was trying to show. The offhand strikes are included in the attack round with the WS itself and are not "added" to the WS damage as it is seperate (following regular TP build rules). Check the TP total after several of the WS in that same video to get an idea of what I'm trying to say.

Here are a few you can see initially in the video.
Wasp Sting = 1x, DW = 10%TP gain
5% Mainhand + 5% Offhand = 10%TP gain

Shadowstitch = 1x, DW = 10%TP gain, next cycle to 30%
5% Mainhand + 5% Offhand = 10%TP gain, resulting 4 attacks (following combat cycle) are externals and add 20%TP gain to the total.

Viper Bite = 1x, DW = 10%TP gain
5% Mainhand + 5% Offhand = 10%TP gain

Viper Bite is a 1x, not a 2x as listed here.

*Do not use the initial DE in the video as that footage was taken under the old TP gain system and not the +1 on multi system we currently use.


Single Weapon TP Build
I'll explain why I think this is still the case. First, let me show the second hit in a multihit-WS giving 1%.

Shark Bite is a 2x (Norally 5%+1%) for a 6% TP gain w/o offhand or internal WS triple. I'll use THF/WAR or THF/DRK in the following screenshots.

Fafnir Regular 6% TP return #1
Fafnir Regular 6% TP return #2
Seiryu Regular 6% TP return #3
Suzaku Regular 6% TP return #4

For all intents and purposes, I believe a regular Shark Bite is 6%TP return without an offhand. That is what I'd expect from a regular Shark Bite following the 2x (5+1) rule.

With that in mind...

Take a look at the following screenshot
Flamingo Shark Bite

The TP return on this one is 25%, that's not achievable when following internal WS TP gain rules. Each additional hit inside a WS will only return a TP% of 1% if a double or triple attack processes inside a WS.

This is how I think 25% is achievable, you know additional attack rounds (Other than the initial round 1) are not included due to the fact that I've been slowed +43% with Hecatomb use and the WS damage is still listed in the chatlog without scrolling. The TP return you see is from 1 complete combat cycle.

Mainhand InitialWSstrike (5+1+1) and SecondWSstrike (1+1+1) + Offhand Attack (5) + Initial Round 1 Attack (5+5) = 25%TP

Here's another using Dancing Edge (5x) as an example.

TP return in this screenshot is 26%TP.

Mainhand InitialWSstrike (5) and Remaining WSstrikes (1+1+1+1(+1+1)) + Offhand Attack (5) + Initial Round 1 Attack (5+5) = 26%TP

Initial Strike Triple Process
I DO believe that the initial strike of a WS can triple process. I believe this is the fact due to the WS, True Strike.

A normal SATA+True Strike for me is around 1400-1600 (Tight variance with SA powered critical 100% of the time) damage on Aura Pots. You'll occasionally get the freak True Strike that goes above and beyond the normal tight 1400-1600 range, this one doing 2200+. I believe that with no other determining factors, that this 1x WS did a triple attack on it's only hit. The critical process is always present due to the fact that SA will force a THF main super critical and make TP% build on that WS irrelevant.



I think we both probably know what we're talking about, we just worded it weird to one another (in reference to redvenomweb). I'll reanswer the questions in your original post.

Does this mean that if (for whatever insane reason) you were single-wielding a katana, they would be 2/4 hits (respectively)? Or does it mean that when dual-wielding, they are actually 4/6 hits?

1. The single weilded Katana WS would still produce the number of hits listed in the WS description regardless of single or dual weild. A regular Blade: Jin without misses should produce a 5+1+1 (with a low delay katana) when not using an offhand weapon. When Dual Weilding, add 5%TP to the outcome. Take into account the Round 1 Attacks if spamming WS from engaging.
2. Yes, The attack cycle associated with the WS will act as if the WS and the offhand were going off in terms of TP gain. The attack cycle (WS+Offhand) is adding one more attack for TP calculation.

 

[Aura]

You know me, always like math. Unfortunately I'm swamped at work today, so I can't really read this until later

 

[Heie]

Archain you have way to much time on your hands. Toss some of that spare time over this way. <Yes, Please>

 

[Shinare]

Not to belittle your work, your research is impressive and thorough, but I thought everyone knew this already? I remember posting info like this on allakanewb quite some time ago, though I admitt your post is much better organized and has actual proof with screenshots.

Well, I guess new people have joined the game and it's now pretty easy for NAs to get parties so maybe people don't know this anymore.

In short, Very nice job on detailing the post, if anyone didn't know this already then you have evidence that's extremely hard to dispute. Go forth and educate the newbs.

 

[Archain]

The original post was in response to this question.

As we all know, Dual Wield adds one hit to your WSes.

Blade: Jin and Blade: Ku are listed as "3" and "5" hit weapon skills, respectively.

Does this mean that if (for whatever insane reason) you were single-wielding a katana, they would be 2/4 hits (respectively)? Or does it mean that when dual-wielding, they are actually 4/6 hits?

My issue was with the way the question was worded and the initial "fact" he stated prior to asking his question. I posted a follow up, but it essentially looks as if we're looking at the same events and describing them differently.

Follow up post

Actually, it's not; it's just that the offhand hit normally won't add that much damage. Go dual wield two daggers with the same base DMG and test DE against something just barely strong enough to live through all 6 hits, and then try it again with one of the daggers removed.

Additionally, here's another example:
http://venomweb.150m.com/vbtest/clp00042.jpg (SW Wasp Sting, 5%, 48 damage)
http://venomweb.150m.com/vbtest/clp00045.jpg (DW Wasp Sting, 10%, 96 damage)

(Yes, I know it's a very small sample, but these pictures were part of an unrelated test.)

The only reason I choose earlier not to believe that that actual damage may be added is due to the use of non-damaging WS, like Energy Drain. It's a non-physical strike resulting in MP drain and adds no damage to the WS when the offhand gives 5%TP.

Energy Drain = Mainhand (0%TP) + Offhand (5%TP) = 5%TP gain @ 0 DMG.

Until I could find evidence that the offhand strike did add damage to the WS that couldn't be attributed to variance, I choose not to believe that this makes a difference (this applies to non-physical WS only).

A weaponskill like Spirits Within will still produce a HP @ 15/32 proportional damage with or without dual wield, but the TP gain is still built on WS TP gain rules.

A weaponskill like Gust Slash will take DEX and INT and your current TP% and create a damage based off of those, the offhand strike will still produce TP but has no influence on the WS damage.

These may be special cases, but even if they are they're still exceptions to the offhand providing any additional benefit other than TP gain.

Physical Weaponskills (anything stackable with SA), on the other hand, will receive a boost to the output damage with the offhand strike getting included.

They're not part of the WS attack round, for two reasons:

1) The TP gain came in two distinct portions, instead of all at once;
2) If it was the offhand strike, then it should have been just one punch instead of two.

As you may know, when you engage, you immediately get an attack round without having to wait for your weapon delay. If you use a JA or WS immediately after engaging, your first zero-delay attack round will execute immediately following your JA or WS. This is what's happening in your video. Again, if you engage and wait until after an attack round, this will be clear.

This point is essentially irrelevant to your initial question, but looking at it I'm unsure how to word this to explain what I'm trying to say. Using the phrase "attack round" was probably not what I should have said.

1. The "initial attacks" (I'll choose this phrase instead of attack round) are completely independant of the WS. and have no bearing on the WS damage itself. They serve as a seperate entity and give TP according to the normal delay of the weapon (external to the WS).
2. The offhand strike is not displayed with a WS, but the TP gain is still present. Physical WS get a slight boost in damage, non-physicals will receive TP without a boost.