Quick note, this should NOT decrease the rate of progress- people should progress at the same pace (or perhaps faster is fine). Also this IS NOT trying to make all content ultimate / savage. To be clear, I am a casual player (in the sense that I want to queue in DF and win, I do not have interest in queuing for content to watch one person destroy the run over and over). I want to be able to mentally calculate the progress I can make, and not feel like time is wasted. So this is not "please make dungeons feel like ultimate", read this more like maintaining the original vision (which I would put around "normal" difficulty on a scale, but as we know over time due to power creep all casual content becomes "very easy" / "insanely easy").
Also, imo, 'on topic' is whatever you want so long as it relates to balance, variety, and reward rates (so difficulty, etc). Doesn't need to be about the below idea, don't need to read the wall if you can't be bothered, but this is my suggestion to the topic!
TL;DR: When NOT under the influence of Epic Echo (and a sync). Power increases your rewards (themselves), but does not necessarily make the game easier (tank buster doesn't just 'tickle'). While before this power normally increased rewards by making the game easier / faster, now power will generally make the game more rewarding. These rewards will be PERTINENT to you (like how the roulette ensures you to queue for old stuff), so you will not be drained in only "double chest rewards from Satasha" when that is pointless to you.
Therefore power still impacts stats, but the game adjusts the dungeon itself through general filters to still approximately be as intended. For example you deal 200 dps, but the dungeon expected 100 dps as MAX (due to your power creep), well the excess is turned into a reward and is therefore STILL IMPORTANT.
Echo (power) earned from death will not count to the reward filters (so you're not rewarded for dying). The content is still going to reward you, just not the extra X% from echo (filter takes that into consideration).
All might feel this in new content where the dungeon has mechanics you have to do, the healer has to heal, etc. But when the content gets old after a few patches, its easy, brain dead, and who cares about mechanics. This is hoping to address that, while not removing the reason to improve you gear / do better (as reward rates should not go down, honestly they should go up IF you are doing well).
Of course you can't not reward players for their progress, because that would just suck lol.
Here is the Core idea: Change the reward structure not to be a reward of (faster/easier) time but MORE rewards.
For example: ilvl 100 content, you're ilvl 200.
THEN (before suggestion): Its super easy, before it took 15 minutes now it takes 5 minutes (and its boring). Reward is you can complete 3 dungeons in the time it used to take 1 (so if you invested 15 minutes you'd get 3 dungeons of reward).
NOW (after suggestion): Its approximately 12 - 15 minutes still, you still have to acknowledge the content's mechanics (as if it were new), BUT the reward is STILL the same, if not better (for every 1 dungeon you effectively completed 3).
Okay so you've done the base concept, but how can we express this over just nerfing stats and increasing rewards!?
In quick description it simply observes your output and adjusts things at the tail end, setting aside excess if needed. Some caveats for useless excess, like overhealing or overkilling is not a reward (if you heal a full hp player, it shouldn't reward you).
While it can be a general filter I think the excitement from this can come from using both the intake ilvl but ALSO the excess being put into the filter to express certain changes to the content and rewards. So its not just "old design" but as you increase in power, as content gets older.. it gets revitalized with changes due to your 'power'.
Therefore we have---
New Challenges: This will change the content slightly depending on how the filter is being fed and potentially by initial ilvls, allowing more powerful players to experience variations to add to the content, these challenges will result in rewards. Not every variation will be launched every time, also if players wipe it'll take that into account (to ensure players are not being overwhelmed- the content wants you to win but with a challenge).
Examples:
Boss mechanics:
Meta changes:
Insane changes: For either events or rarely in very old content, especially if it determines everyone is veterans (no one is doing it for the story), changes that are just like "lol what??".
Overkill filter stats mechanics: If you're doing INCREDIBLE, the game will provide ways to still accelerate the content, reaching that lower 12 like number but still keeping the fight more balanced than 5 minutes.
Personal (almost devil may cry):
BE CAREFUL /NOT/ to add things that will probably make you play bad. Like "only use ice against ifrit" as a black mage.. Things that say you have to follow mechanics successfully is fine, just don't do stuff that is like "pull all the bosses as a damage dealer to earn this cool mount".. that causes the group to be annoyed lol.
Rewards:
Rewards must be pertinent, some players are max level joining Satasha "cool" if the content is a little bit more engaging thanks to the system but dropping some level 15 armor is not going to make their day and they would have wished they could have done the content in 5 minutes like before. Therefore rewards /MUST/ take this into account.
So some mechanics above could be active rewards, like if you catch the ball 10 times you immediately gain a toy (like WoW, permanent goof off objects) that lets you play this mini-game with other players in the open world, but at the end you get X / X% more tomes because of the effort. Rewards can be in the moment and at the end. Just having X% of filter over expectations will also increase rewards.
Some rewards can be local, like if a boss targets you because you're preforming well and you dodge those mechanics the game will log your % boost and compare it at the end if you're under the max it will apply the personal % (if as a team you're at max, then you're at max).
These variations can be added over time too! Which is awesome because you could be doing Satasha for a year, and then SE adds two variants to the whole system and one specific to Satasha. Allowing experience to gently be nudged into not "same ol same ol". These can come in events (like weekly), and also to a MORE controlled extent applied to current end game content (WoW has mutations, that would be an example).
Once the content can be epic echo'd you can pick mutations, so you can challenge specific types of content in the way you find fun (I dont meant you use epic echo, I just mean at the point epic echo works you can also pick these mutations, and they will apply benefits if not in epic echo mode).
Additional potential from the system:
General benefits (tl;dr why):
The game stays challenging longer, at the designed challenge level. The game still can be self nerfed via Epic Echo or if you die (regular echo). The game has more variety and challenge, while rewarding you by the master variable of all (reward as a function of time). So you do not just have a bigger grind, you have a higher quality experience without additional time cost. Don't absolutely murder, while wiping the cheeto dust off your keyboard, bored, ignoring all mechanics on repeat for 10 times, do it 3 times at a more enjoyable way.
Yet, if you wanted to cheeto dust (epic echo) - you can. Ideally, imo, the slightly more challenging way should be better (but overall comparing the rate of growth we have currently VS after the system, I don't want it to be seen as a nerf to player progress). So if anything this might be "make the game harder, but make the game more rewarding for it".
It may also increase the importance of survive-ability stats, since damage is important (very still) but is not immediately tangible as getting your face melted by a tank buster. So, for example, tenacity suddenly adds a huge survive-ability buff because the filter is based on the idea of no tenacity.
Healers are not going to get boned by power creep as much too, which can help them feel important. Since run away defenses, damage, and healing power are far less run away now. Things will hit harder, spells will heal for less, more mechanics will be seen.
--
Anyway I just feel the game rewards you by making it less interesting, and I think-- why not reward me by keeping it fun but also more rewarding. So my investments create investments, without the loss of fun?
Thanks for reading
Continue reading...
Also, imo, 'on topic' is whatever you want so long as it relates to balance, variety, and reward rates (so difficulty, etc). Doesn't need to be about the below idea, don't need to read the wall if you can't be bothered, but this is my suggestion to the topic!
TL;DR: When NOT under the influence of Epic Echo (and a sync). Power increases your rewards (themselves), but does not necessarily make the game easier (tank buster doesn't just 'tickle'). While before this power normally increased rewards by making the game easier / faster, now power will generally make the game more rewarding. These rewards will be PERTINENT to you (like how the roulette ensures you to queue for old stuff), so you will not be drained in only "double chest rewards from Satasha" when that is pointless to you.
Therefore power still impacts stats, but the game adjusts the dungeon itself through general filters to still approximately be as intended. For example you deal 200 dps, but the dungeon expected 100 dps as MAX (due to your power creep), well the excess is turned into a reward and is therefore STILL IMPORTANT.
Echo (power) earned from death will not count to the reward filters (so you're not rewarded for dying). The content is still going to reward you, just not the extra X% from echo (filter takes that into consideration).
All might feel this in new content where the dungeon has mechanics you have to do, the healer has to heal, etc. But when the content gets old after a few patches, its easy, brain dead, and who cares about mechanics. This is hoping to address that, while not removing the reason to improve you gear / do better (as reward rates should not go down, honestly they should go up IF you are doing well).
Of course you can't not reward players for their progress, because that would just suck lol.
Here is the Core idea: Change the reward structure not to be a reward of (faster/easier) time but MORE rewards.
For example: ilvl 100 content, you're ilvl 200.
THEN (before suggestion): Its super easy, before it took 15 minutes now it takes 5 minutes (and its boring). Reward is you can complete 3 dungeons in the time it used to take 1 (so if you invested 15 minutes you'd get 3 dungeons of reward).
NOW (after suggestion): Its approximately 12 - 15 minutes still, you still have to acknowledge the content's mechanics (as if it were new), BUT the reward is STILL the same, if not better (for every 1 dungeon you effectively completed 3).
Okay so you've done the base concept, but how can we express this over just nerfing stats and increasing rewards!?
In quick description it simply observes your output and adjusts things at the tail end, setting aside excess if needed. Some caveats for useless excess, like overhealing or overkilling is not a reward (if you heal a full hp player, it shouldn't reward you).
While it can be a general filter I think the excitement from this can come from using both the intake ilvl but ALSO the excess being put into the filter to express certain changes to the content and rewards. So its not just "old design" but as you increase in power, as content gets older.. it gets revitalized with changes due to your 'power'.
Therefore we have---
New Challenges: This will change the content slightly depending on how the filter is being fed and potentially by initial ilvls, allowing more powerful players to experience variations to add to the content, these challenges will result in rewards. Not every variation will be launched every time, also if players wipe it'll take that into account (to ensure players are not being overwhelmed- the content wants you to win but with a challenge).
Examples:
Boss mechanics:
- A boss tosses an energy ball that it if it hits the ground will cause room wide damage, but each catch increases the reward pool (if you stand on the AoE when the ball lands, it gets tossed into the air and you can't catch it again, it has to be someone else).
- When the Chimera begins to cast Rams / Dragon voice if you interrupt twice you can remove it from their skill pool and they enrage, jumping around (ignoring aggro sometimes), dealing more damage
- Break the Ogre's horn causing them to start howling calling substantially more fire lobbing ogres to appear, creating a bullet hell
- Passives changes, like boss casting effects more often- especially on players who are contributing to the filter (targeting veteran performing players more often).
Meta changes:
- Poisonous space has a debuff added that begins a DoT after a certain amount of time not being healed, stacking, the debuff stacks on enemy attacks that can be removed by esuna or reduced by jumping or receiving a heal
- Totorak, monsters begin to spawn at the entrance and increase in rate / numbers over the duration of the dungeon and also when defeating bosses
- Goblin paratroopers drop down randomly, including in boss fights if doing well enough
Insane changes: For either events or rarely in very old content, especially if it determines everyone is veterans (no one is doing it for the story), changes that are just like "lol what??".
- Vampiric meta, lose health over time, gain health on attacks. You gain buff stacks as you attack that grant movement speed and skill/spell speed. Lose these when not attacking.
- Unending Horde, (trash) monsters revive every 15 to 120 seconds (each monster has it's own timer), each time they revive their defense is decreased by quite a bit and their damage slightly, they revive where they died and will follow you through the WHOLE dungeon (including into boss rooms).
Overkill filter stats mechanics: If you're doing INCREDIBLE, the game will provide ways to still accelerate the content, reaching that lower 12 like number but still keeping the fight more balanced than 5 minutes.
- Stagger: Like seen in other FF games or Diablo 4, after a certain threshold the boss can take additional damage for a short time
- Bleed: Excess over a certain amount will turn into a DoT
- Team effects: Occasionally allies will be highlighted and if you near them you can do a baby limit breaks, like FFXI combo system or other FF combo systems.
Personal (almost devil may cry):
- By performing certain actions, like dodging mechanics targeting you due to your over performance, you will also gain rewards and additional mechanics (occasionally / randomly). These will add to your reward at the end, IF the team reward is not already max. Some rewards can be items, like if you dodge all haymakers from a boss you get a haymaker emote. In this way you can be rewarded for try harding, specially if everyone else is holding you down (so the team reward might not be as good, but you deserved max- good on you!)
BE CAREFUL /NOT/ to add things that will probably make you play bad. Like "only use ice against ifrit" as a black mage.. Things that say you have to follow mechanics successfully is fine, just don't do stuff that is like "pull all the bosses as a damage dealer to earn this cool mount".. that causes the group to be annoyed lol.
Rewards:
Rewards must be pertinent, some players are max level joining Satasha "cool" if the content is a little bit more engaging thanks to the system but dropping some level 15 armor is not going to make their day and they would have wished they could have done the content in 5 minutes like before. Therefore rewards /MUST/ take this into account.
So some mechanics above could be active rewards, like if you catch the ball 10 times you immediately gain a toy (like WoW, permanent goof off objects) that lets you play this mini-game with other players in the open world, but at the end you get X / X% more tomes because of the effort. Rewards can be in the moment and at the end. Just having X% of filter over expectations will also increase rewards.
Some rewards can be local, like if a boss targets you because you're preforming well and you dodge those mechanics the game will log your % boost and compare it at the end if you're under the max it will apply the personal % (if as a team you're at max, then you're at max).
These variations can be added over time too! Which is awesome because you could be doing Satasha for a year, and then SE adds two variants to the whole system and one specific to Satasha. Allowing experience to gently be nudged into not "same ol same ol". These can come in events (like weekly), and also to a MORE controlled extent applied to current end game content (WoW has mutations, that would be an example).
Once the content can be epic echo'd you can pick mutations, so you can challenge specific types of content in the way you find fun (I dont meant you use epic echo, I just mean at the point epic echo works you can also pick these mutations, and they will apply benefits if not in epic echo mode).
Additional potential from the system:
- Challenge Echo. A weaker version of echo that increases your defenses and damage, but attempts to bring you down into only slightly more powerful than the group that it was intended for (instead of massively). Particularly avoidable damage might deal a lot more damage than currently. So instead of doing a primal fight 20 times at a boring minute each to get an item, you do it 5 times at 4 minutes a pop and it's way more challenging and fun. (Challenge echo of course only applying where Epic Echo is approved, Epic Echo is higher chance of success / afk level fighting and good for those who want story mode / have some difficulty playing well for whatever reason).
- Echo that is applied by default would be ignored for the purpose of this system (like some savage content after X amount of time).
- Hunts and important FATEs can use this system to reduce their spontaneous combustion.
- If you develop the system enough you can apply the inverse too (buffing players), so certain FATEs can be do able (like when you first start a FATE with less than X players all players gain a large defensive buff and after X seconds if still under X players gains a substantial offensive buff and reset timer on defensive).
- This system can be applied into helping sync player kits down (level 80 to level 20 content), as the filters can generally be applied.. but is not the main point of the post (and you still have to account for some other stats if you did that, which is why it's not the primary point of the post).
General benefits (tl;dr why):
The game stays challenging longer, at the designed challenge level. The game still can be self nerfed via Epic Echo or if you die (regular echo). The game has more variety and challenge, while rewarding you by the master variable of all (reward as a function of time). So you do not just have a bigger grind, you have a higher quality experience without additional time cost. Don't absolutely murder, while wiping the cheeto dust off your keyboard, bored, ignoring all mechanics on repeat for 10 times, do it 3 times at a more enjoyable way.
Yet, if you wanted to cheeto dust (epic echo) - you can. Ideally, imo, the slightly more challenging way should be better (but overall comparing the rate of growth we have currently VS after the system, I don't want it to be seen as a nerf to player progress). So if anything this might be "make the game harder, but make the game more rewarding for it".
It may also increase the importance of survive-ability stats, since damage is important (very still) but is not immediately tangible as getting your face melted by a tank buster. So, for example, tenacity suddenly adds a huge survive-ability buff because the filter is based on the idea of no tenacity.
Healers are not going to get boned by power creep as much too, which can help them feel important. Since run away defenses, damage, and healing power are far less run away now. Things will hit harder, spells will heal for less, more mechanics will be seen.
--
Anyway I just feel the game rewards you by making it less interesting, and I think-- why not reward me by keeping it fun but also more rewarding. So my investments create investments, without the loss of fun?
Thanks for reading
Continue reading...