This is the result of a tangent in another thread - Rather than detract from that further, we're cluttering the forum some more.
This is mostly for-fun discussion. It is not about fitting things better into the meta, it does not deal with current balance. Assumptions will be made here regarding a theoretical state of the game.
So, lets talk. Starting where we left off
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
But if we do expand it a bit, moving beyond just a couple simple compromises, I wouldn't have all tanks be a broad modular GCD system. In my mind, that seems most thematically appropriate to Dark Knight given the weapon of choice. A job focused around short term buff-granting GCD skills, building up momentum ("Blood") and capping off a modular combo with a Blood weaponskill.
In this scenario, the Tank role would be significantly squishier when maximizing their damage output. The Dark Knight gains their higher durability through GCD selection in modular combos, creating a natural risk/reward system. Can you afford to tax your healer more, or do you turtle? Will you have everything in place before the buster comes in, or would you blow an important cooldown? (This variant would likely only have Living Dead, Abyssal Drain, and Blackest Night on the Defensive on-demand ability side of things.)
This is specifically regarding a "Nerfing" of tanks on a baseline scale in order to allow them to, through their decisions during an encounter, specialize in either course.
Currently tanks enjoy an absurd passive EHP bonus. Along with near a 50% advantage on HP, they also enjoy passive mitigation in the realm of 30-40% depending on who's getting hit by what. At the extreme ends, this is about a 210% - 260% EHP advantage.
Now obviously, this is a 'no duh'. Tanks should be durable. However, there have been more than a few bouts of feedback that tanks feel like they lack agency and impact. One cannot help but wonder if that is because that at a baseline, so much has passively been thrown into tanks.
By contrast, tanks currently do not have too much room for optimization or choice in their gameplay approach. Whether or not one enjoys that is up to an individual. (I tend to prefer optimism - we have a solid launching point for tanks moving forward through this re-establishment of a baseline).
The above quote is specifically about Dark Knights, and much of this initial post will be about Dark Knights, however, this thread is not specifically about Dark Knights. Dark Knight.
So. Lets expand on the above.
I am personally not married to the 1-combo design of Dark Knight, but the framework the current job has allows for some interesting theoretical additions.
For example - Darkside's effect magnifies as it is maintained, but its duration also more rapidly decreases, creating a natural progression and pressure on the Dark Knight to maintain, build, and then rapidly expend, becoming a mechanic to play around instead of fire and forget application.
But, frankly, we're not here for potentially realistic additions now or later. Lets BURN IT DOWN and start from the beginning. Lets aim for a significantly different gameplay loop and feel.
A few assumptions
1. Background changes are assumed. If it doesn't feel like it would work because X, Y, or Z, it's because they weren't considered. We're in the realm of imagination, lets use it.
2. The Tank stat 'budget' is reorganized from a passive baseline. Their stat budget greatly varies based on their decisions in combat.
3. Button Consolidation will be rampant.
However, I'm not going to yell a whole job concept here. Instead, I'm going to offer one part of it, specifically the one mentioned in the quote above.
So lets talk weaponskills.
The greatest waste of the combat system in this game has been the linear, restrictive nature of the weaponskills. While some jobs can certainly have this style (Basic branching combos, straight up 1-5 combos, so on), we have room for something a bit more free form.
The Dark Knight, for example, would utilize a modular combo system, not dissimilar from the Monk, but without the linear nature, through the use of three basic 'stances'.
High Posture - Attacks from high posture have higher base damage compared to others, though can be slower or have other costs associated with them.
Low Posture - Attacks from low posture are quicker, but strike with less ferocity..
Neutral posture - A balanced posture. Attacks are versatile and sweeping.
Unlike the monk, rather than advancing 'stances' in a 123 fashion, the Dark Knight maintains forward-and-back combo transition. Once a combo starts, it does not end until the Dark knight stops swinging, or they employ a Blood weaponskill.
Blood Weapon - Attacks utilizing Blood gain a bonus depending on the posture they are used from, as well as having significantly higher potency of effect and damage.
The method Dark Knight gains blood is open for debate, though in this masochist's preference, it would primarily be from landing attacks and taking damage.
"Okay, but how is it different?"
The biggest difference between Theoretical Dark Knight and Monk is that monk advances through stances in a linear fashion ("123"). The Dark Knight, however, begins their combo with any posture setting weaponskill. For sake of ease, the Dark Knight has the following 9 basic weaponskills.
1. High To High: A high attack that leaves the user in High Posture.
2. High to Neutral: A high attack that leaves the user in Neutral Posture
3. High to Low: A high attack that leaves the user in Low Posture.
[One can make assumptions what the other six basics are, but for the sake of text-walling, they'll be in this bumper.]
4. Neutral to High: A neutral attack that leaves the user in High Posture.
5. Neutral to Neutral: A neutral attack that leaves the user in Neutral Posture
6. Neutral to Low: A neutral Attack that leaves the user in Low Posture
7. Low to High: A Low attack that leaves the user in High Posture.
8. Low to Neutral: A Low attack that leaves the user in Neutral Posture
9. Low to Low: A Low Attack that leaves the user in Low Posture
In this manner, the Dark Knight 'enters' a combo and doesn't end it until the combo timer runs out, or they utilize a Blood Weaponskill.
Simple enough. But why have nine weaponskills across 3 postures?
Because each maneuver grants the Dark Knight a short but potent buff. Buffs that last for a few GCDs. The Dark Knight (and other tanks) are dumpstered from their pedestal of overstuffed passive stats to instead choose what they want running all the time, what they want running some of the time, and hoping they don't screw up their timing so badly that they get biffed into the wall, because other than a few emergency options, that's all you got.
Now obviously there's a significant lack of detail here. It's vague. Consider however, that what I've said here (9 skills over 3 postures and blood 'enders') can mostly, intuitively, fit in 4-6 action slots. (If we consider having Bloodspiller, Quietus, and one other Blood weaponskill). Buffs that last no longer than perhaps 2-3 GCDs, either through duration, or even only lasting for 3 attacks in total.
Key Point summary
1. What if Dark Knights were like monks?
2. 3 'stances', 9 basic actions divided among the 3 stances. 3 consolidated action buttons corresponding to what Stance the Dark Knight will end up in.
3. Blood Weaponskills are your strongest attacks but also effectively end your combo, removing your stance.
4. Tanks are reduced in passive stat bloat.
Continue reading...
This is mostly for-fun discussion. It is not about fitting things better into the meta, it does not deal with current balance. Assumptions will be made here regarding a theoretical state of the game.
So, lets talk. Starting where we left off
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
But if we do expand it a bit, moving beyond just a couple simple compromises, I wouldn't have all tanks be a broad modular GCD system. In my mind, that seems most thematically appropriate to Dark Knight given the weapon of choice. A job focused around short term buff-granting GCD skills, building up momentum ("Blood") and capping off a modular combo with a Blood weaponskill.
In this scenario, the Tank role would be significantly squishier when maximizing their damage output. The Dark Knight gains their higher durability through GCD selection in modular combos, creating a natural risk/reward system. Can you afford to tax your healer more, or do you turtle? Will you have everything in place before the buster comes in, or would you blow an important cooldown? (This variant would likely only have Living Dead, Abyssal Drain, and Blackest Night on the Defensive on-demand ability side of things.)
This is specifically regarding a "Nerfing" of tanks on a baseline scale in order to allow them to, through their decisions during an encounter, specialize in either course.
Currently tanks enjoy an absurd passive EHP bonus. Along with near a 50% advantage on HP, they also enjoy passive mitigation in the realm of 30-40% depending on who's getting hit by what. At the extreme ends, this is about a 210% - 260% EHP advantage.
Now obviously, this is a 'no duh'. Tanks should be durable. However, there have been more than a few bouts of feedback that tanks feel like they lack agency and impact. One cannot help but wonder if that is because that at a baseline, so much has passively been thrown into tanks.
By contrast, tanks currently do not have too much room for optimization or choice in their gameplay approach. Whether or not one enjoys that is up to an individual. (I tend to prefer optimism - we have a solid launching point for tanks moving forward through this re-establishment of a baseline).
The above quote is specifically about Dark Knights, and much of this initial post will be about Dark Knights, however, this thread is not specifically about Dark Knights. Dark Knight.
So. Lets expand on the above.
I am personally not married to the 1-combo design of Dark Knight, but the framework the current job has allows for some interesting theoretical additions.
For example - Darkside's effect magnifies as it is maintained, but its duration also more rapidly decreases, creating a natural progression and pressure on the Dark Knight to maintain, build, and then rapidly expend, becoming a mechanic to play around instead of fire and forget application.
But, frankly, we're not here for potentially realistic additions now or later. Lets BURN IT DOWN and start from the beginning. Lets aim for a significantly different gameplay loop and feel.
A few assumptions
1. Background changes are assumed. If it doesn't feel like it would work because X, Y, or Z, it's because they weren't considered. We're in the realm of imagination, lets use it.
2. The Tank stat 'budget' is reorganized from a passive baseline. Their stat budget greatly varies based on their decisions in combat.
3. Button Consolidation will be rampant.
However, I'm not going to yell a whole job concept here. Instead, I'm going to offer one part of it, specifically the one mentioned in the quote above.
So lets talk weaponskills.
The greatest waste of the combat system in this game has been the linear, restrictive nature of the weaponskills. While some jobs can certainly have this style (Basic branching combos, straight up 1-5 combos, so on), we have room for something a bit more free form.
The Dark Knight, for example, would utilize a modular combo system, not dissimilar from the Monk, but without the linear nature, through the use of three basic 'stances'.
High Posture - Attacks from high posture have higher base damage compared to others, though can be slower or have other costs associated with them.
Low Posture - Attacks from low posture are quicker, but strike with less ferocity..
Neutral posture - A balanced posture. Attacks are versatile and sweeping.
Unlike the monk, rather than advancing 'stances' in a 123 fashion, the Dark Knight maintains forward-and-back combo transition. Once a combo starts, it does not end until the Dark knight stops swinging, or they employ a Blood weaponskill.
Blood Weapon - Attacks utilizing Blood gain a bonus depending on the posture they are used from, as well as having significantly higher potency of effect and damage.
The method Dark Knight gains blood is open for debate, though in this masochist's preference, it would primarily be from landing attacks and taking damage.
"Okay, but how is it different?"
The biggest difference between Theoretical Dark Knight and Monk is that monk advances through stances in a linear fashion ("123"). The Dark Knight, however, begins their combo with any posture setting weaponskill. For sake of ease, the Dark Knight has the following 9 basic weaponskills.
1. High To High: A high attack that leaves the user in High Posture.
2. High to Neutral: A high attack that leaves the user in Neutral Posture
3. High to Low: A high attack that leaves the user in Low Posture.
[One can make assumptions what the other six basics are, but for the sake of text-walling, they'll be in this bumper.]
4. Neutral to High: A neutral attack that leaves the user in High Posture.
5. Neutral to Neutral: A neutral attack that leaves the user in Neutral Posture
6. Neutral to Low: A neutral Attack that leaves the user in Low Posture
7. Low to High: A Low attack that leaves the user in High Posture.
8. Low to Neutral: A Low attack that leaves the user in Neutral Posture
9. Low to Low: A Low Attack that leaves the user in Low Posture
In this manner, the Dark Knight 'enters' a combo and doesn't end it until the combo timer runs out, or they utilize a Blood Weaponskill.
Simple enough. But why have nine weaponskills across 3 postures?
Because each maneuver grants the Dark Knight a short but potent buff. Buffs that last for a few GCDs. The Dark Knight (and other tanks) are dumpstered from their pedestal of overstuffed passive stats to instead choose what they want running all the time, what they want running some of the time, and hoping they don't screw up their timing so badly that they get biffed into the wall, because other than a few emergency options, that's all you got.
Now obviously there's a significant lack of detail here. It's vague. Consider however, that what I've said here (9 skills over 3 postures and blood 'enders') can mostly, intuitively, fit in 4-6 action slots. (If we consider having Bloodspiller, Quietus, and one other Blood weaponskill). Buffs that last no longer than perhaps 2-3 GCDs, either through duration, or even only lasting for 3 attacks in total.
Key Point summary
1. What if Dark Knights were like monks?
2. 3 'stances', 9 basic actions divided among the 3 stances. 3 consolidated action buttons corresponding to what Stance the Dark Knight will end up in.
3. Blood Weaponskills are your strongest attacks but also effectively end your combo, removing your stance.
4. Tanks are reduced in passive stat bloat.
Continue reading...